Equality and Social Justice Committee

We're currently in climate change and rural affairs, although Carol, I believe, will be moving over to housing and local justice [correction: housing and local government]. The reason for that is I cover three areas, one of which is fuel poverty and energy efficiency, and, with the Cabinet reshuffle, the budget went over to housing, and the policy is going over as well.

Okay. Very good. Do we have another official online? Is that Claire Germain?

Yes, you do.

Yes. Hello. And which department are you from?

I'm from the communities and social justice department.

Thank you very much indeed. Excellent. Well, I'll start off, if I may. Jane Hutt, in your response to our 2022 report on fuel poverty and the Warm Homes programme, you said in your response that the revised plan would be published in 2023, along with interim targets. I wondered if you could indicate to us why we still haven't got any interim targets.

Thank you very much, Chair. I think I did seek to address this point in our written evidence to the Equality and Social Justice Committee. Can I say how much I welcome this inquiry that you're taking forward? As I said in that written statement, we are working hard and at pace to update estimates of fuel poverty. They will relate to October last year—October 2024—and we anticipate publishing them in the summer of this year. Those estimates will be based on the Welsh housing conditions survey, as you know and I said in the written evidence, of 2017-18, together with modelled information from administrative data to reflect changes in household income and fuel prices. And so, once we've received those revised fuel poverty estimates from those sources, we then, of course, as you know, work with the fuel poverty advisory panel to agree meaningful targets based on energy performance certificate ratings for our fuel poverty plan. It's interesting, in that I note—. In the written evidence, we do say that

'Although the cost of energy remains significantly higher than it did pre-crisis, there is far less fluctuation in the price cap than there was a couple of years ago.'

So, obviously, that, I think, gives some indication of where we are on this, but we are working at pace to get these out for the summer of this year.

But, by using the housing conditions survey of 2017-18, this is based on hopelessly out-of-date assessments of where we're at, and I think we're struggling to understand how the interim targets will be fit for purpose if we're using such old data.

Well, obviously, I mentioned the energy crisis already, and it's a very fair question, but, as I said, again, in the written evidence, the Welsh Government revised the October 2021 estimates and was using fuel prices for electricity, mains gas and heating oil from April 2022. So, it is important that we acknowledge that that updating took place. But, of course, there is uncertainty in terms of estimates, and it's the historical trends and administrative data, as I've said, that are important.

Can I just say how valuable the fuel poverty advisory panel is? They actually help us, they steer us and guide us, and they certainly have in terms of the new Warm Homes programme, but also they do provide a challenging role to ensure that the programme is responding to current needs. So, it's not a sort of blank time in terms of reviewing the estimates and where we're going; they are working alongside us and our officials every step of the way.

Okay. Sioned Williams wanted to come in.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Dwi jest eisiau dod nôl ar y bwynt y Cadeirydd ynglŷn â’r ffaith na fydd y data yma, efallai, mor ddefnyddiol ag y gallai fe fod, a ddim yn cymryd i ystyriaeth bethau sydd wedi newid ers hydref y llynedd. Un o’r pethau yna, wrth gwrs, yw’r newid yn y cymhwysedd ar gyfer y taliad tanwydd gaeaf, a fydd, yn eich geiriau chi eich hunain, wedi gwthio miloedd o bensiynwyr Cymru i dlodi tanwydd. Felly, er bod yna, efallai, fwy o sefydlogrwydd nawr o ran prisiau tanwydd, maen nhw'n sicr yn uwch nag oedden nhw, ac, ers hydref y llynedd, mae yna lawer llai o gefnogaeth ar gyfer pobl. Felly, ydych chi’n derbyn na fydd y ffigurau yma'n gywir o ran lefel y tlodi tanwydd sydd yna oherwydd bod yna lawer llai o gefnogaeth nawr?

Well, it is very important that we address that issue in terms of supporting, enabling people to take up all the benefits, indeed, to take up the pension credit to enable them to be eligible for the winter fuel payment. And again, maximising income, getting income, making sure people take up benefits they're entitled to, getting money into people's pockets, is critically important through this period where we are looking at revising these targets and working with the fuel poverty advisory panel. Actually, I did want to say I issued a written statement today, which you probably haven't had a chance to look at yet, but it does cover all the strides we've been taking to tackle fuel poverty, particularly looking at the impact of our Claim What's Yours national benefits take-up campaign, but also in just working with our local authorities as well, working with them and looking at the new fuel poverty estimates, working, as I said, with the fuel poverty advisory panel, making sure that we are supporting, as we have done day in, day out with the energy crisis, the cost-of-living crisis, and making sure that people can access the benefits they're entitled to. And I do think it's useful, and I think I probably said this again—I'm referring to our written evidence—that we actually did have a good take-up, in terms of advice services, of pension credit over the last summer. Applications for this financial year had to be in by 21 December, as you know, and I think we've been very encouraged, working with the UK Government, of course, with the uptake of pension credit.

But it is all the other benefits that we need to ensure that people have taken up, and also developing those new fuel poverty estimates, looking, for example, at the all-important index of multiple deprivation, working with local authorities on targeting those who could be identified as being eligible for support. And, of course, Nest will, I'm sure, be going on to look at the ways in which we're now targeting and reaching out to those who could be eligible for support.

Jane Dodds wanted to come in.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Jest i ddilyn i fyny, os gwelwch yn dda, y cwestiwn roedd Sioned yn ei ofyn, dwi eisiau jest bod yn glir. Gwnaethon ni glywed tystiolaeth oddi wrth Gomisiynydd Pobl Hŷn Cymru yn glir iawn y bydd y newidiadau yn y budd-daliadau yn effeithio ar bobl hŷn sydd mewn tlodi tanwydd. Felly, dwi'n poeni dipyn bach nad ydych chi'n derbyn bod pobl hŷn am fod mewn sefyllfa waeth. A gaf i jest gael eich ymateb, os gwelwch chi'n dda, i'r dystiolaeth gan Gomisiynydd Pobl Hŷn Cymru? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds. Very early on, when the changes came about in the summer, about eligibility for the winter fuel payment, I met with the older people's commissioner to talk about—. If you recall, the previous older people's commissioner had had a big pension credit take-up. Not everyone who's entitled to pension credit in Wales had been applying for that benefit. So, we are working with the older people's commissioner—the past one and the present—to say that we needed to ensure that we reach out to older people, recognising it was the winter fuel payment that is so important to older people in terms of take-up of pension credit. It is something where all of the ways in which we can support older people. That does include access to the discretionary assistance fund.

It is very important that we ensure that older people feel that they are eligible and they are entitled to the discretionary assistance fund, because it is a source of emergency support for people—anyone over the age of 16. We do have 800 registered DAF partner organisations who can make applications on behalf of the people that they represent and support, and that does include Age Cymru as well as local authorities, Citizens Advice and those who are working particularly with older people. And I very much look forward to my next meeting with the older people's commissioner to discuss these issues and how we can make older people more aware of DAF.

I think it's very interesting, you know, there's been a lot of awareness raised about pension credit, I have to say. Just interestingly, I recall at one of my surgeries just encouraging people to apply for pension credit and I remember one particular surgery where someone said, 'Not only have I applied but I've gone round and told everybody in the street to apply if they are in that age group'. I think a lot of awareness was raised about pension credit, but we do need to ensure that other sources of funding, benefits that older people might be entitled to, would be available. And I think this is where we are doing other things in terms of our support for the Fuel Bank Foundation—that we invest in our fuel voucher scheme, with the Fuel Bank Foundation particularly supporting those who, perhaps, are off-grid. The discretionary assistance fund also supports people who are off-grid. And we've revised the way we make those payments based on feedback from some of our partners who are at the forefront of tackling poverty—the Bevan Foundation, Citizens Advice as well.

Okay. I just want to go back to the accuracy of the statistics because we've been told by other stakeholders that 45 per cent of households are now living in fuel poverty, or their houses are in fuel poverty. So, that's from National Energy Action Cymru. And then, we heard from the Cardiff University academics who've also been involved in setting up Warm Wales, and who have developed the Foundation Data for Robust Energy Strategies for Housing vulnerability mapping tool. Having seen the mapping tool for Cardiff, I'm really impressed at just how accurate it is in pinpointing the streets where I know that is where the worst fuel poverty is. So, I wondered why neither most local authorities nor the Welsh Government are using this tool to really know where we should be targeting, because we're barely touching the sides at the moment based on the statistics of who's benefited from the new Warm Homes programme to date.

I think it's very valuable. That's why this inquiry is so useful. You're identifying that support that those mapping schemes—. I don't know about FRESH, it's come—. It's the vulnerability—. I can understand, from what you're saying, it's from Cardiff University. I mean, I'm sure officials and others have followed this through. But I think we need to look at what we are doing and what the sources are that we've been using. You know that, last time we did the estimate, we used the British Research Establishment, BRE. So, they have already got all the data and they are currently carrying out our fuel poverty assessment. They will produce a report on the methodology, and also quality assure reports that have been produced by the housing conditions evidence team within BRE. They're very established, obviously, BRE.

And, just to reassure in terms of vulnerability mapping, and the routes to getting the right estimates, they're going to look at three drivers of fuel poverty: energy efficiency of the home, the income of the household, and the fuel cost of the household. So, that's the vulnerability as well as the state of the house, which, of course, Warm Homes will be addressing. And then, we'll request local authorities to provide estimates at a local authority level, where possible. I've already mentioned, just in terms of also mapping vulnerability, our Welsh index of multiple deprivation. There are mapping tools—I think some are commercial—and it's interesting; I don't know whether local authorities have looked to use them. But the Welsh index of multiple deprivation is a free resource. It does, as you know, identify areas that are most likely, including streets, to include households in fuel poverty. And also Nest as well, the advice services, actually identifying through their community outreach, I think, vulnerability.

So, there are obviously different ways, different methods, different expertise developing, which I think is all very valuable. But I think we have got a track record in terms of this, and also established relations with BRE particularly, to help us to move this forward and get those estimates, and they're authoritative, credible and well established.

Okay. So, I wonder if I could just ask Jayne Bryant how you're going to reach the target the Government's set itself for 2035, whereby no more than 5 per cent of households are living in fuel poverty, when we're told, by the experts, that it's 45 per cent of all households at the moment. This is a huge leap to make. How robust are you going to make, or how challenging are you going to make those interim targets, when we get them?

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and thank you for inviting us to this inquiry today—an important inquiry. Absolutely. So, you know that we have our Warm Homes scheme and we've gone in to the second phase of that now, and we've got to a situation where we are looking for more of a deeper retrofit. Our new programme has moved away from being primarily a broken boiler scheme—you know, that had its place—but it focuses on finding more energy-efficient measures, which will heat homes at a lower cost and last longer in people's homes. And, obviously, those measures align with Welsh Government's decarbonisation targets.

Obviously, there's inevitably a trade-off between the number of homes that we can help, by focusing on boiler replacements and providing deep energy efficiency measures that will outlast any boiler replacement, which is what we're looking to do. So, we understand the importance of the work and the numbers and the huge job that is ahead of us, but we are doing what we can, with the resources that we have, along with other schemes that are available.

So, we've got our Nest scheme and our Warm Homes scheme here in Wales, but we are looking to leverage UK Government schemes as well, to make sure there's a whole suite of support available to people, as well as making sure, as my colleague Jane Hutt has said, that people get that advice that they need, which goes beyond those energy efficiency schemes.

Okay. I'll pass over to Sioned Williams at this point and maybe come back to this.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Dwi jest eisiau dod nôl i'r atebion gawson ni i'r adran gyntaf o gwestiynau. Felly, dyw'r cynllun tlodi tanwydd a'r targedau a'r data fydd yn cael eu defnyddio i ddynodi lefelau o dlodi tanwydd ddim yn mynd i gymryd i ystyriaeth effaith cyfyngu cymhwysedd y taliad tanwydd gaeaf ar lefelau tlodi tanwydd. Felly, pa asesiad sydd wedi cael ei wneud o effaith hynny ar lefel tlodi tanwydd, a hefyd efallai ar bwysau ar wasanaethau eraill?

Well, I think that just the changing circumstances, I'm sure, will be taken into account in terms of looking at those estimates, because as I've said, there are three drivers of fuel poverty: the energy efficiency of the home, the income of the household and the fuel costs of the household. So, I would anticipate that that will take into account the changing landscape in terms of benefit entitlement, et cetera. That's something that we will ensure that BRE—. They're not just doing this for Wales; I would imagine that they're doing this further afield in the UK as well. But I would imagine that they would take that into account.

But, clearly, then, what we need to do is ensure that people are able to access the money that they can be entitled to. So, that's about improving access to benefits, as I've said. I've mentioned 'Claim what's yours', our fuel voucher and discretionary assistance schemes, but, actually, the UK Government obviously has a role in this as well, through the benefits system. I would hope to work with the UK Government to look at the impacts of these changes, to inform us just in terms of the way forward for us in responding to the situation in terms of the income levels of pensioners. I'm also responsible for tackling child poverty as well as pensioner poverty, and it's really important that we look at this from the perspective of families and parents taking up all of the benefits that they're entitled to, because I know that energy debt is a real driver of child poverty, and that's something where, again, the single advice fund, the work that we're doing on improving access to, as I said, fuel bank vouchers, and, indeed, discretionary assistance payments, are really important.

Indeed, I think that the fact that we've protected the single advice fund and provided three-year grant funding awards is a really good feature of the social justice input into the draft budget. It's actually giving some sustainability and security to the advice sector, who are helping thousands of people who may be in disadvantaged and marginalised communities, in terms of the take-up of debt advice. Just looking, I can see that debts totalling £43.6 million have been written off since the single advice fund was introduced in January 2020 to September last year, helping 335,000 people. This is about how we ensure that people can get the benefits they're entitled to, but also provide the advice they can use to write off debts.

And can I perhaps just say at this point—I've mentioned it in my written statement—that I've been meeting with energy suppliers? It's not just Government, it's not just the Welsh Government, UK Government and local government's responsibility; energy suppliers have also got responsibilities in terms of how they treat and support their customers. I'm also pushing regulators. I've got this in my written statement, just saying that I met energy suppliers just in October. The Bevan Foundation have said that they've got a role to play in terms of communicating with their customers, but also making sure that they reach out, have repayment strategies and also write off debts.

Diolch. Dwi jest eisiau—

Sorry. I don't know if Christine wanted to come in. Sorry.

Yes, if I may. Just on the targets, 45 per cent is, I believe, taken from when we set our targets, our fuel poverty targets. It was 45 per cent of people at risk and it was at a time when energy prices were at their peak. Part of the reason we're revisiting those targets is because energy prices fluctuate so much, it's very difficult to take a snapshot and say, 'That's what we're heading for.' But it is considerably lower than 45 per cent actually in fuel poverty; that was the number who were at risk of it at the height of the crisis.

There was a lot more support available then, though, wasn't there? That's the point as well.

There was support at the time in the one-off winter payments, yes, but we've introduced others as the Cabinet Secretary's outlined.

And we know as well that energy debt has become deeper. Those people in fuel poverty are in even more severe fuel poverty. I just want to come back specifically on the winter fuel payment, because we know that we've heard from Care & Repair that older people live in houses that they are unable to maintain—they may have a house, but they're cash poor—and we know that for those people, there's a cliff edge, isn't there, of course, with pension credit; you can be just a few pence over and not be eligible, but your health needs as you grow older, as regards respiratory illness, et cetera, danger from falling, are much greater.

So, I just want to come back on the establishing of a specific fund in line with the calls of the older people's commissioner, as we've seen in Scotland and Northern Ireland, appreciating of course that we don't have the same powers over welfare, but it would be within the powers of the Government—as you have been able to with other crises payments—to make a crisis payment. So, have you considered having a specific fund specifically for older people, as we've also heard the older people's commissioner say that she doesn't feel that the DAF is fit for purpose when it comes to older people?

Well, thank you very much for that question. I think I would just like to go back to the discretionary assistance fund at the moment. I look forward to meeting the older people's commissioner on this issue, and I've mentioned the fact that there's a minimum age of 16 for applying for DAF, with no maximum age limit. And just looking at the statistics, as you know, DAF reports regularly, and there were 63,281 emergency assistance payment awards made to 50-plus individuals, so just over 17 per cent of the total. That was the latest report on figures. Among those aged 50 years and above, DAF payments were, on average, made twice, in comparison with three payments made, on average, to individuals aged 16 to 49 years of age. So, yes, there is a big concentration on younger individuals, as I said, reflecting the needs of children and families. But I think that does give, I hope, some reassurance that older people are benefiting from DAF, and from that particular source of funding.

But I will go back to your point, of course, about the winter fuel payment: it is devolved to Northern Ireland and will be devolved to Scotland this year, but it's not devolved to Wales, so we can't legislate for an equivalent winter fuel payment scheme. What we did do—and Christine's referred to it—is that we had that one-off winter fuel payment at the height of the cost-of-living crisis. We were able to treat that as a one-off local welfare provision, meeting that short-term need, and we managed to find the resource to do it because of exceptional circumstances. But we weren't in a position in terms of our powers to be able to develop an ongoing regular payment.

So, that's why we are in a different position in Wales, and that's why we are focusing on ways in which we can ensure that everyone takes up the benefits they're entitled to, and I hope—. Well, we obviously have discussed and debated a lot in other inquiries and in the Senedd the commitment by all 22 local authorities to our Welsh benefits charter, and to the pilot scheme that we're now developing with 14 local authorities, using Policy in Practice to reach out to ensure that—. Because they can now target with that data analytics tool, they know exactly who is eligible for those benefits, which will of course include pension credit, and we hope that that will—. I think the Neath Port Talbot pilot drew attention to this in a big way last year, but also the Bevan Foundation, and you will recall that they did a report with Policy in Practice. So, I'm really pleased—again, this is about what we can do in Wales, a Welsh Government taking the initiative, finding the money with local authorities, having sign-up to the benefits charter, all 22, determined to get money into the pockets of those who need it most. This particular focus, of course, is on older people.

Okay, Sioned? Excellent. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Chair. My question is on the new Warm Homes programme. Cabinet Secretary, how confident are you that this is no longer a broken boiler scheme, as we talked about earlier, and have you got the balance right between decarbonisation and tackling fuel poverty?

Diolch, Altaf. The new programme does aim to provide that low-carbon technology solution, mainly moving away from fossil fuel boilers, and a focus on that deeper retrofit. So, it's taken on the low carbon first, fabric worst side of things. Our crisis route, however, which we have introduced, does allow boilers to be fixed or repaired where the boiler has broken down to ensure nobody is left in that crisis situation without any heating or hot water. I was able to introduce that in October or November time.

In terms of the part of the question around have we got that balance right between decarbonisation and tackling fuel poverty, I think they really do go hand in hand together. We know that if we have warmer homes, it'll help heat people's homes in a more efficient way, move people out of fuel poverty. So, we've got a twin objective, really, within our Warm Homes programme to lift people out of fuel poverty and to decarbonise their home. As I say, the decarbonisation will lead to improved energy efficiency and lower bills, so that's why I think they really do go hand in hand.

As I just mentioned, we did launch the crisis scheme in October, I think, and then we refined it in November. We prioritised those in fuel poverty who needed urgent help because of a broken boiler. I think that it's really important to look at that through the lens that, whilst we may be replacing the boiler, we're also taking a deeper look into the energy efficiency of that property, and we're working with those residents to see what we can do in the future. So, it's about a long-term approach, as well, so even within that crisis situation, we're managing to fix things and also to give advice for the future on those properties that are eligible.

It looks like it's very long term. Your paper says that, because of the ‘deeper retrofit’, you anticipate supporting 1,500 households per year through the Warm Homes programme, compared with an average of 4,000 under the previous Nest scheme. Could you explain the trade-offs considered in deciding to support 1,500 homes per year with deep retrofits as opposed to supporting 4,000 homes, albeit less comprehensively? Further, the Bevan Foundation estimated that at the current rate of work it will take well over a century, something like 2160, to retrofit all necessary homes in Wales. Are you satisfied with that rate of progress?

Diolch, Altaf. I don't think there's going to be a point where we say we've done it, we've made every home in Wales energy efficient, because as the housing stock in Wales ages, more homes will become less energy efficient and will need support from schemes such as the Warm Homes scheme. So, I do very much acknowledge that there's a lot to do. As I said, the Warm Homes programme is the Welsh Government's primary vehicle to tackle fuel poverty, but it is part of that wider picture. There are a lot of packages of support available and these include programmes that focus on social housing and other Government schemes as well. But as I said, this new scheme has moved away from being a boiler replacement scheme; we are really making sure that we're decarbonising properties, as well, for the longer term. Obviously, with that comes more deeper energy-efficient measures, and that will outlast any boiler replacement that we're able to do. So, I do acknowledge that there's a lot to do, but I think the purpose of the scheme now is to focus on the immediate, where we have, sometimes, a crisis situation, but that potential to work with the residents to make sure that their houses are decarbonised, where we can possibly do that, and to make sure that, at the end of the day, nobody's left without heating or hot water.

Altaf, if I can just come in, do you recognise, though, what the Bevan Foundation is saying—that it's going to be 2160, 125 years hence, before we actually get on top of this problem? Do you agree that that is just far too slow?

I would like to see as much pace in this as I'm sure everybody on this committee would, as well, but we're working within our envelope here within the Welsh Government, but we're also looking to leverage, as I mentioned earlier, schemes at a UK level, so it's not simply that we have a Warm Homes scheme and that is going to do everything, we really need to use other schemes across the UK, which I'm very keen to do to get progress where we need to see that. And obviously, as Jane mentioned earlier, putting money in people's pockets—that's also an important aspect as well.

Absolutely. So, we're going to reach those targets we set ourselves in 2035.

We're aiming for that and I can assure you that we'll do everything we can. It's a huge issue, isn't it, that's not just for the Welsh Government, it's across the UK. But we really do feel that here, with our Warm Homes programme and the new focus on it, we've got that long-term look at it as well, so we're not just fixing something and having to come back, we're actually trying to progress something so that we don't have to do that again in the future.

Thank you. Back to Altaf.

Thank you very much. With an allocated budget of £37.5 million, why has the scheme only been given a 7 per cent allocation uplift in the draft budget for 2025-26? What conversations did you have in Cabinet to try to secure more funding for the scheme to support more homes?

Diolch, Altaf. I think it's important that the budget reflects what we're able to deliver, and I have to acknowledge that that's partly dependent on contractor capacity within the system as well. We are delivering the PAS 2035 standard, and that standard ensures that, as I say, we're not facing the same poor workmanship that the UK Government has seen at the moment with the energy company obligation and Great British Insulation schemes. We're working to upskill people as well in this area. Nest has provided an incentive to contractors to upskill our workforce to be accredited to the PAS 2035 standard. It's really gaining momentum, so I'm really pleased to see that, but it's not going to happen overnight; this is something that we will see, hopefully, build up. Obviously, with that contractor capacity, that inevitably impacts on the number of deep retrofit measures that we're able to deliver within that time. But if we find that we're able to exceed the expected numbers in-year, we'll do as we have done with previous schemes and utilise any unspent funding from other areas. I do acknowledge that this is an area of concern for the committee and others across the Chamber.

Altaf, I'm just going to bring in Jane Dodds and I'll come back to you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd. Gaf i jest ddod yn ôl, os gwelwch yn dda, i'r rhaglen Cartrefi Clyd, jest i ganolbwyntio ar yr amserlen? Rydyn ni wedi clywed tystiolaeth gan bobl yn dweud eu bod nhw wedi bod heb wres a heb ddŵr poeth. Felly, mae hynny'n digwydd rŵan. A gaf i fynd yn ôl i gwestiwn y Cadeirydd, os gwelwch yn dda? Oes yna ryw fath o uchelgais i drio symud yr amserlen, i drio dod â hynny ymlaen, jest i sicrhau bod yna rhyw fath o gyflymder ynglŷn â’r rhaglen? Yn fy marn i, dydy hi ddim yn dderbyniol o gwbl ei bod hi jest fel, ‘Wel, mae’n rhaid i ni aros’. Oes yna ryw fath o uchelgais i symud pethau ymlaen yn fwy cyflym, os gwelwch yn dda? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Jane. I understand your ambition and, as I say, I know that we would all like to see that happen as quickly as possible. We know that we have, as I mentioned, the capacity within the sector. And I’d just like to say, in terms of the people left without hot water, no boiler and heating, that there is that crisis route for people who are eligible, and I think it is really important that we make sure we get that message out as well. The Nest freephone scheme is available to make sure that happens. And also, through this process, one of the things that had been identified and fed back from the new iteration of the Warm Homes scheme was the fact that there needed to be more crisis routes, and that was something I was able to take on board and do something about, because I do recognise that. So I think we’ve got that balance between not wanting it to be a boiler replacement scheme—. But I do very much recognise we have to do something where those people are eligible to make sure that they are not without hot water and heating. I do understand your ambition and I share that, but, as I said, I’m really trying to make sure this programme is doing what it says it does within the confines of what we’re able to do here, but also leveraging that extra funding across the UK.

I’ll just bring in Sioned Williams, before I go back to Altaf.

Jest yn gyflym ar y llwybr argyfwng yna, ar hyn o bryd, dyw hynny ddim yn mynd i fynd tu hwnt i fis Mawrth eleni. Felly, ydych chi’n dweud eich bod chi’n mynd i ymestyn y llwybr yna y tu hwnt i fis Mawrth eleni? Ac os ddim, pam? A hefyd, dŷn ni wedi clywed tystiolaeth gan bobl yn dweud dylen nhw ddim fod yn hyrwyddo’r llwybr argyfwng yna, ac rydych chi newydd ddweud ei bod hi'n bwysig bod y neges yna yn mynd mas yna. Felly, a fyddwch chi yn galw ar bobl sydd yn ymwneud â’r rhaglen i sicrhau eu bod nhw yn hyrwyddo’r llwybr argyfwng yna?

Diolch, Sioned. First of all, just to say it is my intention to extend the crisis route to ensure no households are left without hot water or heating. I’m expecting advice in the coming weeks on that, and I’ll then make a final decision on the possibility of the extension. So, I’m hoping that can be looked at as quickly as possible. So, as I say, it is my intention to extend that crisis route.

In terms of the work about getting the message out, absolutely, I think it’s incumbent on all of us to know about this and to share that for people we know that will be eligible. I think the balance has to come, really, because obviously it’s about ensuring the expectation of Nest customers is managed to avoid the assumption that the programme is a broken boiler programme, because obviously this programme is around, primarily, making sure people get that advice about what is suitable for their property and decarbonising the property as well. But we do have this crisis route for the broken boiler scheme. It’s just about making sure that that balance is there: that we’ve got our primary route, but if there are people who are experiencing that and it can’t be fixed, that we have this crisis exemption. So, it is a balance.

Information on the crisis boiler support has been shared widely through stakeholders via our local authority partner development managers. We will be—and, I believe, have been—promoting the route through social media and other channels as well. So, it’s not something I want to make sure that people—. I do think we should let people know about it, because otherwise there’s no point having the scheme, is there? We’ve got to make sure people know about it. But there is that balance between it tipping back to a boiler replacement scheme, and then we won't be decarbonising people's homes.

Thank you for that clarification. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much, Chair. Now, it has been suggested to us that there could be a potential consequential of around £170 million for Wales because of the UK Government investing in its Warm Homes plan. What conversations have you had with the UK Government about this, and would you use this funding to significantly boost the Warm Homes programme?

Obviously, the finance Secretary regularly engages with His Majesty's Treasury, and a key area of discussion around the autumn budget was the need for greater public spending to be supporting public services and putting more money into people's pockets. Those discussions at that level are being had. We've seen some real progress with that and we've had our budget increased to Welsh Government here, which you will know about. Obviously, changes to funding in England on programmes devolved from Wales can result in that consequential, but, obviously, it's for Ministers here, and Cabinet here, to discuss what that allocation of the budget is, and it's for our priorities here within that. So, the greater funding is being discussed, and, obviously, that'll be for us as a Cabinet and Welsh Government here.

Thank you. My last question is: your paper says officials are reviewing progress on the new Nest scheme against its objectives, and, once the review is complete, they will focus on the area-based approach. When will the progress review be complete, and what is the timeframe for developing and implementing a new area-based scheme? And my last bit in this is: the new Warm Homes programme consists of part 1, the new Nest scheme, and part 2, an integrated approach across all tenures and income levels. When should we expect to see part 2 commence?

Diolch, Altaf. So, officials are currently working through the review of the new Nest scheme, and I believe that work is due to be completed on that in April, May time. Once we're confident that the demand-led scheme's working well, we intend to discuss further with the contractor the potential to expand into small area-based activity, such as blocks of flats and terraced housing as well. I'll be able to provide—and be happy to provide—the committee with a further update, when that's available as well. I don't know if—

Could I just ask Jayne Bryant why is it not possible to run those two concepts concurrently? Why is it not possible for one lot of people to review the current Nest scheme and another to make progress on developing new area-based schemes, like for blocks of flats?

If I may—?

I'll bring Christine in to—.

We could do it alongside each other, but the problem is that we wouldn't be applying the lessons that we've learnt from this scheme. Because it's such a different scheme to the old Nest scheme, we've been flexing it as we go along, and that's one of the reasons why we introduced the crisis route. Carol's been doing a lot of work on this review. So, if we were to start going into an area-based scheme, we might be introducing issues that we haven't yet addressed through the review.

Part of the work that we'll be doing on the area-based work will be also working alongside colleagues in social housing, so that we can, where we've got an area where there might be mixed tenure, be working with those. So, it's a big bit of work that'll be happening, but we need to make sure that we get this part of it right to avoid the risk of introducing those issues into the area-based part.

So, you're arguing that the process of what we've done with 1,500 households is going to be applicable to whether or not we have a new area-based scheme. I'm struggling to understand that.

Okay. So, for example, if we hadn't been looking at what we are doing now, we might go into an area-based scheme saying, 'Well, those houses have got broken boilers; we're not replacing those boilers because we want to do an area-based retrofit programme.' Through learning the lessons from the current scheme, we've realised that we do need to be addressing emergency situations with broken boilers, so we want to build that into the area-based scheme.

And just to follow on as well, we're also keeping a keen eye on what's happening with a UK Government decision as well. They've got strategic decisions to be made around hydrogen for home heating as well and the future of the gas network, and so that will have a significant impact on some of the work that we'll do here in Wales. So I think, going back to what Christine said, taking time to look at that in terms of making sure we're getting that right is important as well.

Okay. So, just picking up on Altaf's second question, when do you think part 2 of the Warm Homes programme is likely to commence?

We're turning our attention to part 2 now, but we're very much early in that process, and I'm not able to sort of pre-empt anything at the moment. But, as I said, we’ll very much keep the committee up to date with the work on that.

Thank you. Over to Julie Morgan.

Bore da. Some of our witnesses have said to us that they think there's too much emphasis on air-source heat pumps, and that, if people haven't got suitable property or don't want them, they then don't have anything to turn to. They're saying that the scheme should place more emphasis on what's right for the person. I just wondered what your response was to those sorts of comments that were made to us.

Diolch, Julie. Thank you for that. It really is not our intention to turn any householders whose homes are unsuitable for a heat pump away. Where it's the case, we do really work hard, and Nest work hard, to make sure that homes are more energy efficient and warmer. But Nest doesn't just install heat pumps, they do install other measures, such as solar, double glazing, ventilation, insulation. So, there are other things that are available. As I said, we've really introduced that crisis point for those householders who are left without heating and hot water, but we also have to remember that some people think—. It's changing minds sometimes, isn't it, about what is available. Because I think sometimes we've still got a job of work to do for people who think, ‘I've got a boiler, and my boiler needs to be replaced’, whereas, actually, there's some new technology around air-source heat pumps as well. But I do think it's important that we have that education piece as well that goes with that, because it's important that people do understand how to work an air-source heat pump. But there are other things that are ongoing, rather than just that air-source heat pump.

It's encouraging to hear that you do solar power and double glazing. Do you have any idea of how much of that is actually done, what percentage, or—?

We can come back to you.

Will you write to us on that?

Yes, absolutely; we can write to you on that.

Because that's very encouraging, I think, that you do that.

Yes, absolutely.

But, to go back to the air pumps, when will there be this consultation on permitted development rights that will enable the distance to be either made smaller or got rid of altogether?

Yes, absolutely. I've heard from people within my own postbag, and other Members’, that this is an area that people are keen to hear more about. I'm expecting advice from officials very shortly, and I know 'shortly' could be—who knows when that is? But just to say that we expect the consultation to be launched next month, so that is quite imminent.

That's good. Yes. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. We did have some organisations say to us that Nest caseworkers don't always seem to understand the eligibility criteria. The sorts of organisations that said this to us were Warm Wales and Care & Repair Cymru, and they said that they had to advise the Nest workers themselves about the criteria, and also chase up lost referrals. So, I wondered what's been done to address those sorts of issues.

Yes, absolutely. Obviously, with a programme this size, it's inevitable that there'll be some customers who are unhappy with the service they receive, particularly when we've got a scheme that is in its infancy. But, proportionally, I understand those numbers are very small. Our contractors are measured on the number of complaints they receive. I’ve been encouraged to know that complaints are below 1 per cent of the numbers that the scheme's supported, which is well below our 3 per cent target. Nest advisers also must conduct an end-of-call survey. So, the net promoter score for customer service as part of the survey I understand is rated first class, and world class.

Yes, well I—. Yes, I'm just saying that's what the organisations have told us—quite forcibly, actually.

Well, it's good to hear that and it will hopefully reassure you that that's what we're getting back as well, but, as I say, it's inevitable there will be some issues in such an early time. So, we'll keep an eye on that and make sure that that is still going the same way, because we can't let up on that.

No, but it doesn't translate into actual complaints from what you're saying.

Not the figures that we've—. It's not what we've heard, no; less than 1 per cent.

Okay, thanks very much. The previous Minister wrote to us in August 2023 saying that contracts for the new scheme would be awarded in November 2023, and previous contracts had been extended to March 2024 so that there would be no gap in the provision. British Gas told us that the six months had been a massive learning curve as they'd had to demobilise the old scheme and mobilise the brand-new scheme, and revise their contractor base. They said it had been quite a huge upheaval. So, what sorts of comments have you got on that?

So, I've been assured that there is no gap in the provision between the old scheme and the new scheme. There was a period in which British Gas were in mobilisation for the first six months of the scheme, just ensuring on boarding of contractors to deliver the new requirements of the new programme. And I think that's when the reported learning curve that you mentioned in your question was taking place. But, during this process, British Gas continued to undertake installations for those who'd applied under the old scheme. Our advisory and referral service recontacted a handful of houses that had made applications under the old scheme that had timed out, and they invited them to carry out their application and to see that on to the new scheme. So, there have been actions taken to make sure that happens. So, as I say, I understand there was no gap in the provision but there was that point that you mentioned around a learning curve.

Yes. So, do you feel that there's been a smooth transition between the two schemes?

So, from my understanding, there was no gap in that provision. Obviously, I've come in after this process but that's my understanding, and I feel reassured to know that those households were contacted to recontinue with their applications that were able to. I don't know if, Christine, you'd like to say anything.

Yes. So, we had a sort of parallel system going where we were completing the applications on the old system while British Gas was mobilising the new system. So, those were running alongside each other, and, yes, it was a big learning curve but they were still applying the learning from the old one to make sure that the people on the old scheme were continuing to be supported. Some of those timed out but it was very few, and we made sure that they were recontacted and asked if they were still interested and, if they were, they were moved into the new scheme. So, there was no gap where people were contacting the scheme and being told they couldn't be helped.

Thank you.

Okay. Just to follow up, the consultation that you're launching next month, will that be around the distance of the heat pumps from the next door neighbour, or will it be changing the process by which people can install them? I appreciate it's a consultation, but what's the extent of—?

And I'm waiting still to get that advice on the extent, but as soon as we do we'll make sure you're aware of that.

Thank you. Sioned wants to come in and then I'll move over to Mick Antoniw.

Diolch. Jest un pwynt bach cyflym ar y pontio llyfn yma. Fe glywom ni gan Gofal & Thrwsio rhwng Ebrill a Medi mai dim ond chwe chleient roedden nhw wedi gallu eu cyfeirio at Nyth o'i gymharu â 60 yn yr un cyfnod y flwyddyn cyn hynny. Beth ŷch chi'n meddwl, felly, sydd i gyfrif am hwnna, achos fyddwn i ddim yn dweud bod hwnna yn teimlo fel pontio llyfn i fi?

I hear that. All I can do is say what the figures are that we've heard, and what I understand, which Christine has been able to explain as well, that there was that learning happening, and, I think, for British Gas, there was that time, but, as far as I'm aware, there was no gap in provision, which is more than the—. I'm not saying it was a smooth transition in that way, but there was no gap in provision. As I say, I was comforted to know that households were reconnected. But I don't know if there's anything specific on care and repair.

That's not something that came to us; no-one came to us and said, 'We're not able to refer these clients'. All I can think of is that those clients wanted gas boilers, and we'd moved away from providing fossil fuel boilers, so they wouldn't have been eligible for it. As the Cabinet Secretary mentioned, there are some people who, it doesn't matter what you offer them, they just want a new gas boiler. And if we are to hit our decarbonisation targets, we have to be quite firm and say, 'Unfortunately, we can't provide you with that'. Unless, as has been mentioned, it's on the crisis route.

We'll move on now to Mick Antoniw, which may help elucidate this further.

Thank you. Just a couple of questions. To start, I want to talk about the contracts and the monitoring arrangements, and then I'm going to ask a few questions about ECO schemes. First, you're obviously aware of the previous recommendations that were made by the Auditor General for Wales. Just for the record, I'll outline what they are: carry out appropriate benchmarking between bidders; be clear on the expectations of scheme managers in relation to the industry standard specs for the installation of energy efficiency improvement measures; ensure that the scheme managers provide their disaster recovery plans, as required by the contracts; more closely monitor performance; and obtain more timely and comprehensive support from its independent external quality assurance arrangements. I wonder if you could just outline the extent to which they have all been implemented.

Thank you, Mick. I thank the auditor general again for those recommendations. We have implemented several of those measures to provide assurance and governance under our new Warm Homes Nest programme.

I can just say a few of those that might be helpful to the committee: reducing potential conflicts of interest by letting separate contracts for our advice and referral provider and our delivery provider; works undertaken in accordance with PAS 2035 standards, so that the most appropriate measures are applied to each household. That means that every retrofit project is subject to monitoring and evaluation to determine whether the installation outcomes of the retrofit programme have been realised.

We've also introduced KPIs for complaints received, and introduced a 10 per cent retention of payment in the final year of the contract, to ensure that there are sufficient funds to remediate any deficiencies in installation. This also stands as an incentive to ensure high-quality work. We've also ensured governance through financial monitoring, project boards and compliance meetings.

I think it is important, Chair, to recognise that work, because we know of schemes that—not through the Welsh Government—have not been done to the standard that residents should expect. I can think of two—one in Caerau, and I know there's another one in Gwynedd—and it's important that we use those lessons that we have from those schemes into this. I think that's why it's really important, to reassure people, that we are learning lessons from previous schemes, going forward.

Thank you for that; that's really helpful. Can you identify which ones haven't been implemented yet and the reasons why?

I might have to ask—.

I would say we've probably implemented all of those. In terms of benchmarking between bidders, there was a very rigorous tender process when we were procuring the bidders. It's pure chance that the three that actually won the contract—. We've got Energy Saving Trust for the advice and referral service, British Gas for the delivery service, and then we've got an independent quality assurance service, which is Pennington Choices. It's complete chance—. Well, it's probably not complete chance, because they had experience, but they were involved with the last scheme. The difference this time round was that EST was subcontracted by British Gas before to offer the advice and referral scheme. We felt that that could introduce conflicts of interest, so we separated them out. The advantage of that is that EST can signpost to other schemes.

In terms of the scheme managers, we have monthly compliance meetings. We also have quarterly strategic meetings with the contractors and we lay out exactly what we expect of them. The scheme managers have got a disaster recovery plan built into their contracts. As I've mentioned, we monitor performance and then obtain timely and comprehensive support. The independent quality assurance is Pennington Choices. They will look at the plans for installations before any work is done to make sure that they're appropriate. They will then visit homes where work is being undertaken to see the work in progress and they'll quality assure that, and then they go back and they'll also do quality assurance at the end of the installation to make sure that it meets the standards required.

Thank you for that. That deals with some of the issues I wanted to raise with regard to implementation and monitoring. With regard to the information that you obtained in that particular way, is it going to be co-ordinated, collected and made publicly available?

Officials are currently developing a monitoring and evaluation framework for the programme. It will be overseen by and reported to the programme board, with an input from the important fuel poverty advisory group as well. And as with the previous scheme, we'll continue to publish an annual report on progress each year of the scheme.

Thank you for that. That's very helpful. Chair, I was going to move on and I wanted to ask some questions about the energy company obligation, unless there's anything further on that last point.

Go ahead.

In your paper to us, you talk about £350,000 being provided to leverage funding into Wales. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about precisely what has been leveraged, what is being leveraged, et cetera, and how successful that has been. How much UK money has come to Wales as a direct result of that funding or any other associated leveraging in?

Diolch, Mick. As you said, the Welsh Government allocated £350,000 to local authorities in Wales to enable them to complete a statement of intent on the provision of ECO Flex schemes within their area. I'm pleased to report that every local authority in Wales now delivers the scheme. Officials have attempted to obtain information from TrustMark, which certifies installations under the ECO Flex scheme. Unfortunately, TrustMark have not been able to provide us with the information in terms of the figures and the question you specifically asked about how much has flowed into Wales, but I can assure you that we will continue to press this. This is something that I would certainly be keen to follow up, and I will keep the committee updated on that work. I don't know if there's anything that Christine wants to say specifically about the challenges.

It has been challenging for a number of reasons, and it is very difficult for us to get those figures. Even the local authorities aren't able to provide us with those figures. It's the way TrustMark collects the information. They don't disaggregate it. We will continue to press them for it, but we can only provide you with the information that they provide to us, because it's a UK Government scheme.

Thank you for that. Obviously, the disaggregation of data is a problem in many areas. You say in your paper that you've been working with the Welsh Local Government Association to encourage local authorities to grow the ECO4 Flex scheme, and you also say that a further grant award will be made shortly to each local authority. I wonder if you're in a position to tell us any more about that at this stage.

Thank you, Mick. We've consulted with the WLGA and local authorities on what support they feel they need, and we've awarded them a further £500,000 for this financial year to redress the remaining barriers. I'm pleased to be able to say that we've been able to do that this year.

Thank you for that. One of the other issues raised, of course, is in terms of the ECO4 scheme, poor workmanship and difficulties in customer redress in relation to the scheme. I'm just wondering what steps are being taken by the Welsh Government to overcome those in respect of standards of workmanship and redress.

The Welsh Government doesn't have any formal role in the ECO4 scheme, but we have been made aware of issues with the scheme, and when we have, we've raised that with the relevant UK Government officials. Last week, I had the opportunity to meet with the UK Government Minister, Miatta Fahnbulleh, ahead of her statement on Thursday. She confirmed the auditing process has uncovered widespread issues with installation and solid wall insulation. I was then able to provide a written statement to the Senedd, and I'm reassured by the steps that have been put in place.

There has been immediate action to suspend those poorly performing installers with any new work, and the installers are required to correct any poor work at their own cost. The regulator Ofgem is contacting all impacted households and is overseeing the work. Obviously, I'll take a very keen interest on that in the work that is being done, and the Welsh householders who will be affected, but I was pleased to have had that discussion with the UK Government Minister.

Also within that conversation that I had with Miatta Fahnbulleh we were able to discuss some of the schemes that we have here in Wales, and as we just touched on in the previous few questions, just about how we've learnt lessons here in Wales from previous schemes, what we do to ensure that we have that quality assurance through our new Warm Homes Nest scheme, and I agreed that my officials will be in contact with UK Government officials so that they're able to learn from those lessons as well and so that they understand our scheme and what we've been able to put in place.

We want to improve quality for the customer and that should improve household confidence as well. I think it's really important, as I said, that we're able to show we've learned from schemes, we're constantly learning, but we need to also share that at a UK level as well so that they can do the same. I am glad to say there was an appetite from the UK Government and the Minister, Miatta Fahnbulleh, for that.

Thank you for that. Just one final question. Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board are exploring the relationship between schemes and reducing instances of respiratory problems for vulnerable people. I'm just wondering what steps the Government is taking to not only encourage and develop this particular drive, but also look at issues related to decarbonisation, fuel poverty, and so on, within the framework of the work that's going on.

We work with the WLGA to bring local authorities together to share that best practice in relation to Warm Homes, Eco Flex and GBIS. It is clear that there are areas of good practice. I'm really keen to see how I can help in that and how we can share that good practice, because you're absolutely right, that exists, and I think we need to be shouting about that as much as possible.

The scheme that you mention with Cwm Taf Morgannwg is really interesting, isn't it, and really exciting, how that's supporting the work to make sure that those with health conditions aren't exacerbated by living in damp conditions. So I'm really keen to see what more I can do in that space, but I very much know that the WLGA do have a forum for sharing that best practice as well.

Thank you for that. I think that really deals with all the points I wanted to raise, Chair.

Thank you. Can I move over to Jane Dodds now?

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Jest i ddilyn i fyny, os gwelwch chi’n dda, ar y cyfarfod rydych chi wedi ei gael efo’r Gweinidog yn Llundain, Miatta Fahnbulleh, gaf i ofyn os oedd yna drafodaethau am dariff cymdeithasol, os gwelwch chi’n dda?

I think I'll pass it over to my colleague Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane. I did highlight this when I met with Minister Miatta Fahnbulleh earlier on, last year. I raised the issue of a social tariff. I meant to say earlier on that I meet with Ofgem regularly, and I've also—in fact, it's in my written statement, I think—called on them, Ofgem, to introduce a social tariff for protection to vulnerable householders. I think this is something where we do need to see, as I said to the Minister and Ofgem, much closer engagement between the regulator and the Government in terms of the calls for these new measures.

We have actually given our evidence about the need for not just a social tariff, but also on standing charges as well. I mentioned this again in my conversation with Minister Miatta Fahnbulleh, that we need to look at the unfairness of standing charges, particularly as it affects our communities in Wales. The highest standing charges are in north Wales. So, yes, social tariffs are the way forward. It's interesting, also, referring to the water industry, of course, where there are social tariffs used effectively, and, indeed, not using standing charges as well.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Gaf i ofyn beth oedd yr ymateb? Rydych chi wedi dweud eich bod chi wedi cael cyfarfod, ond dwi ddim yn hollol siŵr beth oedd yr ymateb. Oedd yna rywbeth y gallwn ni edrych ymlaen iddo? Oes yna ryw fath o amserlen ynglŷn â beth oedd hi’n siarad amdano, os gwelwch chi’n dda? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I can say that it wasn't a surprise when I raised social tariffs with the new Minister, and I'd certainly been raising it with the previous Minister for energy consumers in the previous Government as well. There have been strong calls for social tariffs, and work is being undertaken, as I said, with Ofgem playing their part as well. It's certainly something that I'm going to follow up at my next meeting with the UK Government.

I think it's also important to get energy suppliers on board with this as well, because there are questions and issues about introducing social tariffs in terms of the needs, perhaps, of some who need higher levels of energy because of particular needs—medical needs, for example. But I think this is something where it's the most progressive way to support our most vulnerable people without having significant negative impacts on other households. I really think, because of the adverse impacts the cost-of-living crisis and the energy crisis have had on customers, consumers, our constituents, it does demand new, progressive approaches. We have repeatedly called for it, and I hope the committee will also have seen the evidence in favour of social tariffs.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Byddai'n wych gweld os oes rhywbeth yn digwydd ar ôl y cyfarfod nesaf rydych chi'n ei gael. Yn ôl at raglen Cartrefi Clyd, rydyn ni wedi clywed gan randdeiliaid fod yna fwlch ynglŷn â sgiliau i gefnogi’r rhaglen yma a rydyn ni eisio clywed tipyn bach mwy, os gwelwch chi’n dda, am y Llywodraeth a sut maen nhw am lenwi'r bylchau sgiliau ynglŷn â rhaglen Cartrefi Clyd. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Jane. Absolutely, and as I was saying earlier, in terms of the skills that we have in Wales, it's finite, really, isn't it, at the moment. There's still a lot to do within that. I think that's one of the good things about this Warm Homes programme. The programme does offer a job creation and supply chain for retrofitting, employing local trades and boosting demands for local skills in these areas. Community-based schemes such as communal heating systems and whole-building insulation systems that can positively impact multiple homes will be explored as part of the programme, further adding the sense of community that'll be developed by increasing disposable income through lower energy bills.

British Gas have been working closely with their contractors to ensure that they upskill their workforce. As I said earlier, contractors need to be competent in delivering the requirements of PAS 2035, so training and support will be provided to all those working on the scheme. And beyond the Nest scheme, we also need installers to decarbonise the rest of our homes in Wales and, indeed, across the UK. So, the imbalance in the supply and demand is impacting, as I said, on our ability at the moment to deliver quality installations at the pace we'd all like to see and, I know, that you'd all like to see as much as me. So, existing and prospective installers have access to personal learning accounts, which open up free access to training opportunities, and we're working with the further and higher education sectors here in Wales to ensure that the provision of courses meets those needs as well. So, I can't underestimate the importance of needing our skilled workforce and the opportunity that that provides young people, as well.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am hynny. Dwi dal ddim yn hollol glir am beth mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd yn fwy cyflym. Rydyn ni wedi sôn am ba mor araf deg ydy'r rhaglen, felly allwch chi jest esbonio mwy am rôl y Llywodraeth i drio gwthio ymlaen yr amserlen i gael mwy o bobl sydd â'r sgiliau i gymryd rhan yn y rhaglen, plîs? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Jane. Obviously, as I said, it's a skills shortage across the UK as well as Wales, but we are, really, with our PAS 2035 standard, as I said, making sure that contractors provide training and support to all those working on that. Obviously, some of this goes into my colleague Jack Sargeant's portfolio in terms of skills, and so it is—and the work that he does within that—I'm sure, very much a cross-Government piece of work in terms of officials, as well. But perhaps we can write to the committee further with some more detailed information about what we're doing specifically in this area, if that would help.

Ie, trwy'r Cadeirydd, bydd hynny'n iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Bydd hwnna'n help mawr, dwi'n meddwl. Mae'r cwestiwn olaf gennyf i, os gwelwch yn dda, jest ynglŷn â'r dull cydweithio gan y Gweinidogion sy'n cymryd rhan, fel rydych chi wedi sôn, i drio symud y rhaglen yma ymlaen. Allwch chi jest sôn tipyn bach am sut mae hynny'n gweithio a hefyd pam mae o'n wahanol i'r rhaglen gynt? Pam ydych chi'n meddwl y bydd o'n llwyddiannus, er enghraifft, ac a fydd o'n sicrhau ei fod yn symud yn fwy cyflym nag ydyn ni wedi gweld hyd yma? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch, Jane. As I say, I think the programme is different in the sense that it is focusing on not just the immediate but also making sure that we're decarbonising homes in the future, so it is making sure that Nest, who are advising people, are looking at that whole-house approach, really. And even if that approach at the moment isn't ready—whether it needs a new boiler but it's not ready for something else—actually, we work with that household to make sure that we can do that in the future. So, there is more of a long-term look at this, that deeper dive—there are more complexities with doing some of this, rather than the quick, perhaps, changing of a boiler. But, really, that's what we need to be doing; we need to be decarbonising our homes.

We also need to take people with us on that journey, ensuring, as we've said, that we don’t want people to just see any scheme that we have as just replacing a boiler. We need to make sure that there’s that education out there as well about what these new technologies do and how they're helpful for people specifically. Our independence, as a Nest service, is really important, about highlighting all those schemes that are available. It’s not just a scheme that we have—we’ve got this Warm Homes scheme, Nest scheme, but, as I’ve said, there are more UK-wide schemes out there as well that we need to really utilise to help us on that journey.

Perhaps I could just come in here. It’s so good that you’ve asked us both to come here today, because this is absolutely joined-up government in the Welsh Government. You’ve mentioned Jack Sargeant as Minister for skills, but, obviously, the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for climate change—. It’s so important that this is part of our drive to net zero. But I think what's particularly important is the fact that we’ve got this strong Advicelink Cymru, we’ve got our county voluntary councils, which we fund, we’ve got all the sources of support and advice coming through all of the voluntary sector, particularly Citizens Advice. But also I think it’s important that we see this and that we must reach out to all our diverse communities and focus our communications, particularly in terms of language, accessibility, that we reach out from an equality and inclusion perspective as well. So, I think we feel there's more of a join-up of Welsh Government policy.

Okay. So, I’ll come to Sioned Williams in a moment, but while we’re sticking with joined-up policy, there was a very interesting statement from the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being on 2 December, which highlighted the work being done by Cwm Taf Morgannwg to identify tenants who might be eligible for ECO4, based on the frequency with which they were attending the hospital or the surgery, and we haven’t been able to find any other health board doing this, what looks like a really good preventative scheme, and I just wondered what conversations you’ve had with the Cabinet Secretary for health to, obviously, prevent people needing to go into hospital because they’ve got a cold home.

Absolutely, that Cwm Taf Morgannwg project sounds really exciting, doesn’t it, and interesting, because I think trying to identify—. It’s all about prevention, isn’t it, and that early intervention that we can get, which is what we all really want to see. As I said, that good practice is shared throughout health boards and local authorities, but I’m really keen to see what more I can do within that to help shout about really good schemes like this, because I would like to see more of that across Wales.

Okay. Sioned.

If I may—.

Sorry, Christine.

Could I just come in on that? We, actually, have a health route in Nest and we also have a health route in ECO, where people who do have certain eligible—. But there are a number of local authorities who actually work through primary care providers as well to identify people.

Yes. Excellent. Sioned Williams.

Jest i ddod yn ôl ar y pwynt yna ynglŷn â’r angen i’r rhaglen a’r holl raglenni yma i fod yn gydgysylltiedig, a dŷch chi wedi haeru yn eich papur fod rhaglen newydd Cartrefi Clyd yn fwy cydgysylltiedig ac rŷch chi wedi sôn eto’r prynhawn yma am bwysigrwydd yr holl elfennau gwahanol yma wrth daclo lefel tlodi ynni. Rŷn ni wedi clywed am dystiolaeth o anghysondeb rhwng yr awdurdodau lleol, ac rŷn ni wedi clywed eto fod yna rai byrddau iechyd yn gwneud rhai pethau a bod yna rai awdurdodau lleol yn gweithredu mewn ffordd arall. Fe glywson ni fod yna'n arfer bod swyddogion HECA ar gael ymhob awdurdod lleol o dan Ddeddf Arbed Ynni yn y Cartref 1995. Fe wnaeth hynny gael ei ddiddymu yma, ond nid yn Lloegr. Felly, beth yw eich barn chi ynglŷn ag adfer rôl o’r fath er mwyn sicrhau bod yna ddull mwy cyson o drechu tlodi tanwydd ar draws awdurdodau lleol Cymru?

Diolch, Sioned. I think it’s a challenge, isn’t it, making sure that we get that best practice and good practice shared as widely as possible. Obviously, there is a route with the Welsh Local Government Association and how they work with local authorities, and I think they’re really important in how they share that best practice and ideas, and that also gives then an opportunity for local authorities to learn from others, while going through some other problems. It’s learning lessons again, isn’t it, really? But our broader strategic approach to energy efficiency includes local area energy plans. Those plans are designed to provide a detailed road map for achieving energy efficiency and decarbonisation at a local level. We work closely with local authority leads on fuel poverty and energy—I say that—through officials. For example, the local authority officials who run ECO Flex schemes meet with Welsh Government officials regularly as well, and local authority officers were key in developing those local area energy plans. Those local authorities that own social housing are also in close contact with our housing decarbonisation teams. So, there are routes, certainly, into making sure those best practices are shared, but I’m very happy to look at other ideas about how I'm also able to highlight some of those and make sure local authorities are very much aware of them.

Roedd e’n rhywbeth y clywom ni nôl gan y swyddog o gyngor Rhondda Cynon Taf. Roedd hi’n dweud, yn ei barn hi, ei bod hi’n meddwl y byddai’n help, er mwyn cael y fath yna o arbenigedd a chydlyniant a chysondeb, wrth gwrs, wedyn, ar draws yr awdurdodau lleol, drwy gael swyddog penodedig HECA ym mhob awdurdod. Felly, byddai’n dda pe baech chi’n gallu edrych ar hynny.

I don't know if Christine wants to say something more about some of the discussions that you have with officials at local government, if that helps.

Yes. On HECA, we withdrew the requirement for that in 2007, so it’s quite a long time ago, and the landscape has changed a lot since then, particularly with the development of the LAEPs. To reintroduce them now, when we’ve got things going on, also adding in not only the cost of doing that, but also another layer of reporting for local authorities—. It’s something we could look into. Obviously, that’s not for officials to decide. But, in the discussions that we’ve had at local level with local authorities, there will always be some people who will want to bring something back and others don’t. We feel that what works best in terms of fuel poverty is that local authorities know their own areas best and they work best by doing that, but bringing them together to share good practice and ideas.

Okay, very lastly, Jane Dodds. A quick question.

Yes, thank you very much. I’ll say it in English, just to be quick. I just really wanted to say—and this is for the Ministers, really—that this is our second inquiry into this area and it feels to me as if nothing has moved on, I’m afraid. So, I would like to ask you both: what two things will you be doing in order to accelerate the pace, so that we have warmer homes and people are not going into hospital? It’s stating the bleeding obvious that if you live in a cold, damp home, you are more likely to be ill. Please could you just give us some reassurance that this is seen as an emergency and a crisis for these people, and what are you going to do about it as Ministers, please? Thank you.

Diolch, Jane. Like I said, we do want to see that pace as well. I don’t want you to think we don’t want to see that pace. I think it’s important that we work across Government on this issue. I hope that we can reassure you to that extent, that we are trying to do that across Government. It has to be something for all of us, whether that’s skills, whether that’s health, whether that’s social justice and housing, to make sure we’re doing that, as well as at a UK level, to do everything we can to make sure the schemes are working together. I think that’s a really important aspect for me.

And absolutely, you are right, we do not want to see people in cold, damp properties. That’s why, as I say, we’ve reviewed the scheme that we have with the new Warm Homes scheme, to put that emergency situation in. I just want to tell you that we are listening, when people come back and tell us that something isn’t working. There’s an example of when we’ve done something, we’ve heard, and we’ve tried to rectify that.

Following on from that, I hope, Jane, you’ll have seen the written statement that I made earlier on about tackling fuel poverty being a key priority for the Welsh Government. We need to do everything we can in our powers across Government, as Jayne has said, to help struggling households and those in fuel poverty.

Last week, when I was talking about the Welsh benefits charter and this new scheme we've got with Policy in Practice, that came about because we know that there are £2 billion-worth of benefits that are not being taken up in Wales, and we feel that the take-up, maximising incomes, getting money into people's pockets, the drive—. We didn't have the Fuel Bank Foundation partnership before, which is having a huge beneficial impact, particularly on the most vulnerable, on prepayment meters, and now that we have got a reset relationship with the UK Government as well, I believe that we must see, but we will see the kind of change that we need in terms of tackling fuel poverty in Wales.

One thing I didn't mention—very quickly, Chair—was, of course, I was very pleased to bring back the warm hubs funding. In the last couple of weeks, I've visited two warm hubs—one in Llanddewi Velfrey, and then, last week, one in Pontarddulais—where it is really important that we also enable people to come together into warm places. Actually, in both places, they were able to get support, advice, links to all of the schemes that we've been talking about today. That's very intergenerational, but particularly supporting older people in Wales, and, indeed, that's again in the draft budget to continue through to next year as well.

Can I just finally say—sorry, Chair—that the Warm Homes scheme has helped, over the years, nearly, I think, 200,000 people? I know we hear sometimes about those people who haven't got that help, or are still in need, but we have to take stock about where we've come from, and there are obviously more people being helped this year. So, there are people being supported through that scheme since 2011. I think we've got a new focus this time, but just to remind everyone that there are people who do get that help, and I think we've got to remember that as well.

Great. Thank you very much, both of you, for your attendance, and for your officials as well. We will write to you about some detail on the type of help that's being provided by the new Nest scheme, because we obviously didn't have time for that. And we'll also write to you about why it was that your officials have not been advising you about the FRESH vulnerability mapping, because this is artificial intelligence doing the job for you, which should be able to speed up the speed at which we are targeting those who are most in need.

And there were a couple of things that I agreed to write to the committee on in terms of the consultation. We'll make sure that's done as well.

Excellent. We will, of course, send you a transcript for you to correct if we've managed to record you wrong. Thank you very much indeed for your time.

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you.