Early Years, Children, Young People and Education Committee

Bore da. Gaf i eich croesawu chi a'r cyhoedd heddiw i gyfarfod Pwyllgor y Blynyddoedd Cynnar, Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg? Mae eitemau cyhoeddus y cyfarfod yn cael eu darlledu'n fyw ar Senedd.tv a bydd cofnod o'r trafodion ar gael ac yn ei gyhoeddi fel arfer. Mae'r cyfarfod yn gwbl ddwyieithog ac mae cyfieithu ar y pryd gyda ni o'r Gymraeg i'r Saesneg. Derbyniwyd un ymddiheuriad heddiw, gan Claire Johnson-Wood. Felly, rydym ni wedi nodi'r ymddiheuriad hynny. A oes gan unrhyw Aelodau fuddiannau i'w datgan, os gwelwch yn dda? Lynne.

Can I just refer to my register of interests and the further education course that I'm doing, please?

Dim problem. Diolch yn fawr, Lynne. Mair.

Jest i nodi fy register of interests a bod gen i bartner sy'n gweithio mewn prifysgol fel darlithydd.

Diolch. Lis, hoffet ti ddod i mewn hefyd?

Ie, jest i nodi'r register of interests, a hefyd fy mod i wedi gweithio gyda'r mentrau iaith.

Diolch. Catherine.

I used to be a teacher and I have a close relative who is still teaching.

Diolch yn fawr. For my part, I also used to work in higher education for a number of years, until May this year, and I also have close family that still work in higher education.

Diolch yn fawr. Felly, os nad oes unrhyw beth pellach ar eitem 1, fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen i eitem 2.

Felly, dyma ni gyda'r sesiwn graffu gyffredinol ar waith Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae'n bleser gen i groesawu'r Dirprwy Weinidog dros Sgiliau ac Addysg Drydyddol, Cefin Campbell. Cefin, oes modd i chi gyflwyno Ruth a Claire, neu mae croeso i chi gyflwyno'ch hunain?

Ie, efallai fod yn well—a bore da i bawb—eu bod nhw'n cyflwyno eu hunain.

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr. Ruth.

Dim problem.

Ruth Meadows, director of skills and tertiary education in Welsh Government.

Diolch, Ruth.

I'm Claire Rowlands, deputy director in Ruth's directorate, responsible for strategy and funding.

Diolch yn fawr, Claire. Croeso i chi i gyd. Beth rydyn ni wedi cytuno arno heddiw yw i gadw strwythur y sesiwn yn ystwyth iawn. Felly, gall Aelodau ofyn cwestiynau, gwrando ar yr ymatebion, ac yna ymateb gyda chwestiwn arall, er enghraifft. Ond, rydyn ni wedi trio bod yn garedig hefyd ac wedi rhannu y sesiwn yn themâu, fel ei fod yn haws i ni gadw at rhyw fath o drywydd i chi. Y thema gyntaf sydd gyda ni yw addysg a hyfforddiant cyfrwng Cymraeg. Fe wnaf ddod at Mair yn gyntaf i ofyn y cwestiwn cyntaf, os gwelwch yn dda.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae gen i ambell i gwestiwn ar y maes yma. Mae yna ddata yn dangos bod cyfran uwch o siaradwyr Cymraeg yn ymgymryd ag addysg uwch mewn colegau, addysg bellach a darparwyr amgen nag mewn prifysgolion. Fodd bynnag, faint o'r myfyrwyr hynny sy'n astudio trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg mewn gwirionedd, a sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru a Medr yn mesur ac yn sicrhau bod darparwyr yn cynnig cyfleoedd cyfrwng Cymraeg digonol ac yn cael eu dal yn atebol am wneud hynny? Yn amlwg, mae mesur faint o siaradwyr Cymraeg sydd yna ar draws addysg drydyddol yn bwysig, ond hefyd faint o'r addysg a'r hyfforddiant sydd yn digwydd trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae gennym ni ddiddordeb mewn gweld hynny, a sut mae modd cynyddu ar hynny.

Wedyn, cwestiwn arall cysylltiedig hefyd—mae yna ddata yn ein briff ymchwil ni, er enghraifft, sy'n nodi bod cynnydd wedi bod yn nifer y staff sydd yn dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg i fyny at 2024-25. Ond, yng nghyd-destun pwysau ariannol a'r posibilrwydd o doriadau pellach sydd yn wynebu prifysgolion, dwi'n pryderu'n fawr y bydd y niferoedd yna'n lleihau. Beth mae Llywodraeth Cymru, gyda Medr, yn ei wneud i sicrhau nad yw staff a darpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg yn cael eu colli yn anghymesur, gan danseilio'r ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg hynny? Mewn gwirionedd, mae hynny'n wir ar draws addysg bellach ac addysg uwch, ond dwi'n ymwybodol o'r pwysau penodol sydd ar addysg uwch ar hyn o bryd. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am y cwestiwn. Fel y bydd nifer ohonoch chi'n gwybod, mae datblygu addysg Gymraeg yn rhywbeth sy'n agos iawn at fy nghalon i. Mae'r Llywodraeth hon hefyd eisiau gweld cynnydd sylweddol yn y ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg ar draws pob sector, o addysg blynyddoedd cynnar trwyddo i addysg uwch, ac yn sicr addysg bellach.

Os caf i ddechrau gydag addysg bellach, mae llai nag 1 y cant o'r ddarpariaeth ar gael trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ar hyn o bryd ar draws ein colegau. Mae hynny'n sefyllfa gwbl annerbyniol, felly dwi wedi cael nifer o sgyrsiau gyda Medr a chyda ColegauCymru, yn pwysleisio ein hawydd ni, ein disgwyl ni fel Llywodraeth, y bydd y ganran yna'n cynyddu'n sylweddol. Digwydd bod, ddechrau'r wythnos yma, fe ges i gyfarfod gyda Medr, ac mae Medr yn paratoi eu cynllun Cymraeg nhw ar hyn o bryd, fydd yn cael ei gyhoeddi y flwyddyn nesaf. Fe wnes i bwysleisio mewn llythyr cyn y cyfarfod, ac yn y cyfarfod hwnnw, fy mod i'n disgwyl iddyn nhw roi'r arweiniad yna ar draws y sector trydyddol, gyda nhw fel corff yn arwain, a bod angen newid y meddylfryd o fod mewn man isel iawn, iawn o ran darpariaeth i sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn dod yn rhan o ddarpariaeth prif ffrwd ein darparwyr ni yn y sector trydyddol. Felly, mae eisiau newid y meddylfryd ac agwedd yna, ond mae angen paratoi strwythurau i sicrhau bod gyda ni digon o staff yn medru darparu a digon o gyrsiau ar gael.

Ond y pwynt pwysig, dwi'n meddwl hefyd, yw, os ydy plentyn wedi cael addysg drwy gyfrwng Cymraeg hyd at 16 oed, mi ddylai fe fod yn ddilyniant di-ofyn i mewn i addysg bellach neu i brentisiaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Dyw hynny ddim yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Rŷn ni'n colli cymaint o'n pobl ifanc ni sy'n siaradwyr Cymraeg wrth iddyn nhw drosglwyddo i'r sector trydyddol.

Diolch.

Gaf i ofyn cwestiwn?

Mair, cer di.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae 1 y cant yn hynod isel ac yn sicr mae yna angen i wella fanna. Yn gysylltiedig efo hynna, mae yna sôn, weithiau, efo darparwyr a Medr, am edrych ar gynyddu'r gyfran o gyllid i wella'r ddarpariaeth addysg a hyfforddiant drwy gyfrwng Cymraeg, gan hefyd roi sylw i brentisiaethau. Mae'n galonogol clywed eich bod chi wedi cael trafodaethau efo Medr. Pa gyfleoedd sydd wedi'u nodi a sut bydd y gwaith yna efallai'n cael ei adlewyrchu yng nghyllideb 2027-28?

Beth ddylwn i fod wedi dweud hefyd yw bod ColegauCymru wedi sefydlu grŵp tasg yn ogystal i edrych ar sut i ddatblygu'r ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg, o dan gadeiryddiaeth prif weithredwr Grŵp Llandrillo Menai, a dwi wedi trefnu cyfarfod gyda fe fis nesaf yn barod. Felly, dwi yn rhoi pwysau ar y sector i gynyddu'r ddarpariaeth.

O ran cyllid, mi fyddwch chi'n ymwybodol bod yna drafodaethau cyllid yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Dŷn ni ddim wedi gorffen y broses yna eto. Mae'r cwestiwn ynglŷn â sut rŷn ni'n cefnogi datblygu cyfrwng Cymraeg yn rhan o'r trafodaethau yna. Ond dwi yn gobeithio, yn hwyr neu'n hwyrach, fydd y Gymraeg ddim yn cael ei gweld fel cyllideb atodol. Mi ddylai'r Gymraeg fod yn rhan o brif ffrwd darpariaeth y sector yn gyfan gwbl. Does neb yn gofyn faint rŷn ni'n ei wario ar y Saesneg, felly dylai ddarparu trwy gyfrwng y Saesneg a'r Gymraeg fod yn rhan o brif lif y ddarpariaeth a bod y gyllideb yn adlewyrchu hynny.

Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. Fe wnaf i ddod â Lis i mewn nawr, plis.

Sut mae? Fel rhywun sydd wedi bod trwy addysg drydyddol—fe wnes i adael ysgol yn 14 oed heb unrhyw gymwysterau ac wedyn mynd i mewn i addysg drydyddol—roeddwn i'n teimlo ei bod hi wedi newid fy mywyd i. Mae hi'n gyfle i bob un, ac mae rhaid inni ffeindio pob math o lwybrau i bob math o bobl, onid oes? Beth sydd yn fy nharo i am hwn yw bod yn rhaid inni wrando ar y bobl. Fel enghraifft, os ydyn ni eisiau cynyddu'r ddarpariaeth Cymraeg, pam dyw e ddim wedi digwydd yn barod? A beth dwi'n gweld yw bod yna heriau yna. Mae yna un her, wrth gwrs, o ran does dim digon o ddarlithwyr yn fodlon neu yn gallu dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac mae hynny'n cael ei ddelio gyda fe. Un arall yw’r ffaith dyw pobl ifanc, yn aml, ddim efallai yn ei dewis hi. Rŷn ni wedi dibynnu ar y person ifanc i ofyn am addysg Gymraeg, neu i ddewis addysg Gymraeg. Fel wnest ti ddweud nawr—roedd hwnna'n brilliant—dŷn ni eisiau iddi jest cael ei chynnig iddyn nhw, yntefe? Ond, er mwyn ei chynnig hi, mae colegau yn tueddu i edrych ar beth yw'r demand amdani hi. Maen nhw'n aros i weld beth sydd yn cael ei ofyn amdano. So, mae angen i ni, rhyw ffordd, roi'r cynnig yna ac efallai cymryd tipyn bach o risg er mwyn sicrhau ein bod ni'n darparu'r peth—fod yna lai o bobl, efallai, mewn dosbarthiadau, ond bydd hynny wedyn yn cynyddu dros amser. Oes modd inni wneud hynny?

Wel, dyna beth byddwn i'n hoffi gweld yn digwydd, a dyna'r neges dwi wedi rhoi'n glir i Medr a CholegauCymru, fod y dilyniant yna o addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, ac mae'n rhaid i ni gofio, hefyd, fod llawer iawn o ddysgwyr da wedi dod trwy'r system addysg Saesneg yn awyddus i ddatblygu eu sgiliau hefyd, unwaith maen nhw'n mynd mewn i'r sector trydyddol.

Unwaith rŷn ni'n gosod seiliau mae ymateb i'r galw rŷn ni'n ei wneud, rŷn ni'n gwybod nad yw hynny ddim wedi llwyddo. Dyw e ddim wedi llwyddo dros yr 50 mlynedd diwethaf, a dyna pam rŷn ni'n gweld niferoedd mor isel yn cael addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn y sector. Felly, mae eisiau i ni sicrhau bod y dilyniant yna'n digwydd yn naturiol, heb fod gorfod galw amdano fe.

A'r ail beth yw ein bod ni hefyd yn gwybod bod yna bobl ifanc yn gadael ysgol yn 16, efallai yn teimlo, 'O, dwi wedi cael digon o addysg Gymraeg, a dwi eisiau gwneud gwaith nawr yn Saesneg.' Felly, mae'n rhaid inni addasu cyrsiau hefyd, a’r gefnogaeth, i sicrhau ein bod ni'n adeiladu eu hyder nhw a'u sgiliau llafar nhw yn arbennig, ac, ar yr un pryd, dangos iddyn nhw beth yw manteision sgiliau dwyieithog ar gyfer y gweithle. Ac rŷn ni'n gwybod, wrth i ni symud ymlaen i'r dyfodol, fod mwy a mwy o angen yn mynd i fod am sgiliau dwyieithog. Felly, mae dod â'r cyfan yna at ei gilydd yn bwysig.

Gaf i ddod â Catherine mewn nawr, plîs?

Bore da. I'm interested in promoting the Welsh language and its uptake. But, as with the letter from ColegauCymru here, there is a huge financial instability that they've spoken about. So, how will these finances balance against that instability? And it's okay to have a good mindset, but what about the practicalities and the budget? And also there's a disparity between north and south Wales in the figures here. What can be done to address that?

Well, we recognise that the further education sector is under pressure. We've seen increased numbers of young people wanting to go into FE. The enrolments are up, and there are waiting lists as well. So, that's a good-news story in many ways, that so many young people want to continue with their education post-16. But it does come with financial challenges, and operational challenges as well for FE colleges.

Now, I want to see all of those young people being offered places in colleges, and as many of them their first choice courses, where that is possible. So, what I am doing is working very closely with Medr, who are monitoring the situation, and we will also, in the financial considerations that we also have to take account of, be able to monitor the situation better in November, when the final sets of data around enrolments are presented and published. So, at the moment we are keeping a close watch on the situation and if finances allow, we will provide further support.

Just to say as well, Medr have already put £6.25 million into the FE system to support the current cohort, and that straddles into six months of this current academic year.

And is that for the Welsh language? Is this what we're talking about here, for the Welsh language? So, there's a disparity between north and south Wales in terms of that, so what can be done to address—? What is being done to address that?

I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about the wider pressures around—. So, just on the Welsh language.

Yes.

Well, clearly, just on the Welsh language aspect, there is some very good practice in north Wales already, as there is in other parts of Wales as well. So, what we need to do is roll out that good practice, right? And one of the difficulties is around bilingual provision. And as it happens, in a previous life, I did a thematic report for Estyn on what bilingual provision means. It's interpreted in many different ways. It could be just a 'bore da, shwmae' as they walk into the class. Or it could be a structured bilingual provision where elements of the oral work are through the medium of Welsh, and elements of the written work are through the medium of Welsh, and vice versa through the medium of English. So, we need to look at different models, and that is why I'm working with Medr and Colegau Cymru to come up with solutions that are tailored to the needs of learners.

Diolch, Ddirprwy—. Ruth.

It was just to say, really, that at the moment Medr is operating with a fairly historic funding model around what Welsh-medium funding looks like in different areas. And I think that kind of, you know—. You referred to the north-south; there's more money going into colleges in north Wales as a result of that model. Medr are looking at that funding methodology. They've inherited a number of different models as they came together as an organisation, and work is under way to see how they can look at maybe distributing that funding to make sure that we can grow the language across Wales, through our colleges.

Yes, because one of the things I said in the question was that with Colegau Cymru, they are balancing very fine books here. So, what I'm concerned about is with this balancing of finances, where does the Welsh come into it, because that is going to have to be financed, isn't it? Do you know what I mean? If you've got learners that are learning as they go along, that's going to have to be financed as well.

So, these are considerations in budget discussions at the moment, and we are well aware of the pressures around Welsh medium, but the wider pressures as well in the FE sector.

Okay, thank you.

Hefyd, mae'n bwysig nodi, Aelodau, y byddwn ni'n dod nôl at graffu ar y gyllideb yn benodol o ran y Dirprwy Weinidog a'r cyfrifoldebau hynny pan fydd gwybodaeth ar y gyllideb ar gael i ni, wrth gwrs.

O ran y thema yma, mae e'n eithaf eang, ac roeddwn i'n nodi ddoe fod yna newid wedi bod i'ch cyfrifoldebau chi, a nawr maent yn cynnwys gwaith ieuenctid hefyd. Felly, mae yna gwestiwn gen i, os caf i. A fydd y Llywodraeth yn ystyried cyhoeddi cyfarwyddyd pellach ar sut mae awdurdodau lleol yn asesu ac yn cynllunio ar gyfer, ac yn cefnogi, darpariaeth gwaith ieuenctid cyfrwng Cymraeg? Mae hwnna'n peri pryder i fi ar hyn o bryd. Dwi ddim yn sicr bod y fframweithiau a'r strategaethau yn gynhwysfawr o ran darpariaeth ieuenctid cyfrwng Cymraeg ar hyn o bryd.

Wel, os caf i ddweud, dwi'n falch iawn o gael y cyfrifoldeb am waith ieuenctid am bob math o resymau. Mae gen i rywfaint o brofiad, flynyddoedd yn ôl, o fod yn y sector yna. A dwi'n gwybod pa mor bwysig yw gwaith ieuenctid, nid yn unig o safbwynt y Gymraeg, ond o safbwynt rhoi cyfleoedd i bobl ifanc i ddod at ei gilydd. Mae e'n gyfle iddyn nhw gymdeithasu, mae'n helpu gydag iechyd meddwl, a hefyd yn fan lle mae pobl yn gallu eu cynghori nhw ar lwybrau dysgu a rhoi cefnogaeth iechyd a chymdeithasol iddyn nhw ar yr un pryd.

Ond o safbwynt y Gymraeg yn benodol, dwi wedi cael nifer o sgyrsiau gyda swyddogion, a dwi eto wedi ei gwneud hi'n gwbl glir pan fydd y strategaethau pum mlynedd yma yn cael eu cyflwyno i fi, dwi'n disgwyl gweld ymrwymiad cwbl glir i ddarpariaeth trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ym mhob rhan o Gymru—nid mewn rhai ardaloedd, ond ym mhob rhan o Gymru. Mae yna bobl ifanc mewn addysg Gymraeg ym mhob un sir yng Nghymru, a dwi'n disgwyl gweld bod hynny'n cael ei adlewyrchu yn y strategaethau pum mlynedd yma. Mi wnaf i fod yn gwbl onest: os nad ydw i'n cael fy argyhoeddi bod y strategaethau yna yn cwrdd â'r gofynion hynny, mi fyddaf yn eu gyrru nhw nôl.

Diolch yn fawr am roi'r sicrwydd yna i ni, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Oes yna unrhyw gwestiwn pellach ar addysg a hyfforddiant cyfrwng Cymraeg? Lis.

Mae hwn yn rhywbeth i'w wneud â gwaith ieuenctid.

O, ie, wrth gwrs, gwaith ieuenctid.

Mae cwestiwn wedi'i ysgrifennu lawr fan hyn gen i, ond o'm profiad i o weithio yn y maes gyda'r mentrau iaith, roeddwn i'n gweld bod gwaith ieuenctid yn ad hoc ar draws y wlad trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae'n bwysig iawn eu bod nhw'n cael y cyfleoedd yna, nid dim ond o fewn welydd ysgol, ond hefyd y tu fas, yn eu cymunedau nhw. Achos dyna ble mae pobl ifanc yn dysgu defnyddio'r Gymraeg yn eu cymuned nhw, sef yn y peuoedd sydd yn briodol, i ehangu eu profiadau nhw.

Ond beth roeddwn i eisiau ei ofyn yw—. Mae'n bwysig i fi—a dwi'n gobeithio y byddwch chi'n cytuno, rili—fod yr Urdd, y sefydliad sydd yn gymwysedig ac yn arbenigo yn y maes yna, yn cydweithio ac yn cydweithredu â'r mentrau iaith ar draws y wlad hefyd. Mae hynny'n bwysig, y cydweithrediad yna, achos mae'r ddau sefydliad yn cynnig rhywbeth hollol wahanol i'w gilydd yn ein cymunedau ni. So, y cwestiwn roeddwn i eisiau ei ofyn oedd: sut all Llywodraeth Cymru sicrhau bod pobl ifanc ledled Cymru yn cael mynediad cyson at wasanaethau ieuenctid drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg gan ddarparwyr cymwysedig?

Mae hwnna'n gwestiwn pwysig iawn. Mae gennym ni fudiadau, fel yr Urdd, fel y mentrau iaith, fel y clybiau ffermwyr ifanc, mewn rhai ardaloedd, sydd yn cynnal eu gweithgareddau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mi fyddwn i'n disgwyl gweld y strategaethau pum mlynedd yma gan awdurdodau lleol yn y sector gwaith ieuenctid yn adlewyrchu eu hawydd nhw i weithio mewn partneriaeth â'r mudiadau yma. Mae hynny'n bwysig. Ar yr un pryd, dwi'n meddwl, yn yr hirdymor, ei bod hi'n bwysig datblygu capasiti awdurdodau lleol a'u hadran gwaith ieuenctid nhw hefyd o ran gallu delifro drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Achos mae hwn yn gyfrifoldeb i bawb, nid yn unig yr Urdd a'r mentrau iaith. Mae'n gyfrifoldeb i'r awdurdodau lleol, a dwi ddim eisiau iddyn nhw olchi eu dwylo o'r cyfrifoldeb hwnnw chwaith. Felly, mae yna atebion tymor byr ac mae yna ddatblygu capasiti dros yr hirdymor hefyd.

Dwi fy hunan eisiau sicrhau ein bod ni'n gweld bod llywodraeth leol ar draws Cymru ddim yn jest defnyddio'r Gymraeg fel ffordd o gael Cymraeg mewn i ysgolion Saesneg, ond ei fod e'n digwydd drwy'r Gymraeg i bobl sy'n siarad Cymraeg.

A dwi'n credu fy mod i, fel nifer o gwmpas y bwrdd yma, wedi gweld gormod o gynlluniau gweithredu yn y gorffennol sydd yn docenistaidd tuag at y Gymraeg.

Ie, yn union.

Fyddaf i ddim yn caniatáu i hynny ddigwydd.

Iawn.

Diolch. Lynne.

Good morning.

Bore da.

On youth work, obviously, the five-year plans are an important part of the picture, and it's good to hear you say that you will return the plans if you're not satisfied with them. Hopefully that also goes for other aspects of the plans. You're probably aware that there was a lot of concern amongst the third sector about where they would fit into this picture. So, can I ask you, when you get the plans in, if you think that they are not sufficiently working in partnership with the third sector, whether you will also take that action with local authorities?

But I also wanted to ask about the national body. The plans are part of the picture, but the national body was announced in order to give youth work that national profile and drive right across Wales. So, just to ask if you are committed to the national body, whether there's any update on timescales for the development of that.

In principle, I'm absolutely supportive of the whole idea of having a national body that will co-ordinate the whole sector, and raise the profile as well, and make sure that the importance of youth work goes into all levels of local authority work, and developing those partnerships you were talking about with third sector bodies, who have a wealth of experience in this field.

You will know that we are having difficult financial discussions at the moment, and we've made no decision about the timescale for developing this national body yet; it's under consideration. In principle I want it to happen. Whether we look at an interim set-up before we get to that point is open to consideration, so no decision has been made yet. But it's certainly something in principle that I support.

So, is the funding that was set aside to develop the national body still in the budget?

Everything is in the budget at the moment, but you will know from your own experience that being in Government means that you have to make tough choices. So, I'm not saying that we've decided on anything yet, but that is just in the round of discussions.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Diolch, Aelodau, hyd yn hyn. Rŷn ni'n mynd i symud ymlaen nawr i'r thema nesaf, os yw'n bosibl, sef addysg a hyfforddiant galwedigaethol. Eto, mae yna nifer o bobl eisiau dod i mewn fan hyn. Gwnaf i ddod yn gyntaf at Art, os yw'n bosibl, plis.

Very happy to. Minister, good morning to you and your team. I want to try and focus in specifically on those not in education, employment or training. It's something I experienced myself from the age of 14 to 16. I had a rare blood disorder that left me immunodeficient, so I left school with nothing myself. At the time I left school, some of the more traditional routes that were available, such as going into the armed forces, manufacturing apprentices, were much higher in prevalence than they are now. We can see already that the trend is starting to go alarmingly in the wrong direction for those that have fallen into being NEET. From the latest data for December 2025, we're at 17 per cent of 16 to 24-year-olds, and that was a 5.5 per cent increase on the year before. I'm wanting to try and find ways in which we can actually alleviate this problem for young people, and not lead them to, potentially, just a life of being economically inactive. I note from one of your contributions in the Chamber that you had stated that there will be some academic input placed into this, and I was just wondering when that is likely to be available for the committee to see.

So, we're talking about the NEET agenda here, and it's very distressing when you look at the numbers of NEETs in Wales. There are different sets of figures, but the more accurate ones seem to suggest that about 47,000 young people in Wales are NEETs, about 14 per cent; some figures indicate higher levels than that. It's a situation we've inherited, but we are absolutely giving this need our full attention, because we need a different approach.

We know that Sir Alan Milburn has produced a report, and the final report will be available in the next month, I believe, but he's already shown us some indicative figures and findings as well. Two points. We need a holistic approach to the challenge of the NEET situation, because of young people, as Alan Milburn actually showed us, 70 per cent of them are economically inactive. That is, they are not in a place where they are ready for work, and that is they face so many personal barriers: it could be mental health, it could be trauma induced, it could be additional learning needs, it could be transport, it could be housing, it could be childcare. There are so many issues.

So, we had a meeting yesterday, the Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy and I, on how we have a collegiate approach to tackling the NEET agenda. And what we realised was that in order to have that holistic, whole-Government approach, we would have to bring colleagues in from health, from social care, from housing and from transport, because it is a multidimensional issue. So, what we need to do is support those people furthest away from the labour market, and it will need all kinds of different interventions to get them to a place where they are ready to apply for jobs. So, you have that work to do, and then, on the other side, you have people who are ready for work—graduates, in many cases, who have applied for hundreds of jobs—and can't get employment. So, we need to improve the economic prosperity of Wales and work with employers to create more job opportunities, which is why we want to support apprenticeships and why we want to develop the skills agenda so that providers, the Welsh Government and employers work together to understand where the emerging sectors are likely to be in the future. And that is why we are undertaking this skills audit, which will be publishing its work in March or April of next year.

Cheers for that, Minister. It's very nice to hear of the holistic approach that's going on, because the barriers are there and if we can knock down the barriers it makes it easier for that person to get back on track.

I'd like to put on record some of the great organisations within Newport and Islwyn that do some of this work. I've visited two—Newport Youth Academy and EET Group—and I'm still to try and get to see ACT Training. Between them, some of the things they come back and say are that they are there to help, but funding and knowing what the future pathway is going to look like for funding would enable them to do so much more. One of the areas I struggled with when we were starting to look through the scrutiny papers that were here was to actually see where that is and how much it is. Is that something that you could look to make more clear in the 2027-28 budget?

I'm very much aware of the importance of third sector bodies and community groups, and it relates back to the discussion we had around youth work as well, because youth support is so important as a gateway for those young people to have the best support and advice on learning pathways that will potentially lead them to jobs. We know that the financial situation is pretty severe at the moment and we are trying to juggle all of these needs and also to be aware that the NEET agenda is something that we are absolutely committed to supporting. I don't know whether the officials want to come in on any of the discussions we've had around youth and ALN and NEET?

No, but I think it's probably worth just noting that that pathway to progression is a programme for government commitment in terms of mapping out what progression looks like through the system. And I think that's perhaps where, previously, people have come up against dead ends. So, I think that's something that we're going to be working on in earnest over the next few years.

Yes.

And the last one, if I may, is one of the particular barriers they bring up that I don't think we have discussed yet is around where you're going to step into the apprentice world—hopefully from the side of NEET into an apprentice or going back into further education—is the actual base level of attainment to then step up to that next level. And I think that's one where, if you are able to speak to the third sector, they will give you the list, quite clearly, of the support they need around being able to conduct that.

Well, apprenticeships are vitally important and it is something that I passionately feel that we need to support. It is a different pathway into jobs. With the apprenticeship schemes we have, currently, Welsh Government is putting £150 million into supporting apprenticeships. And I would want to see Careers Wales and schools providing even more information to young people at an earlier age about different options that are available to them, which includes apprenticeship schemes. And it is why I am holding a skills summit on 8 October in Swansea, bringing together apprenticeship providers, FE, HE, employers—some of the biggest employers in Wales are coming to that event as well. So, we have, on the one hand, the need for a pipeline of young people coming through the system, but we need them to come through a system that aligns with emerging sectors. So, the skills audit, which I mentioned earlier on, will help us identify what the growing sectors are likely to be in the next five, 10 years. So, what we need then is for providers to align provision with those future skills needs—so, tying in education to employment. And I want young people to know about those opportunities in their own regions, and some regions will have different needs in terms of employment skills. For example, I'm thinking about north Wales with the development around nuclear in Wylfa, and south-west Wales, where I live, around offshore wind energy and the technology around hydrogen and carbon capture. All of those will need specific skills. So, we want to align apprenticeship schemes and FE skills provision to those regional needs, but also the national needs, which include healthcare and other sectors as well. Ruth.

Just to mention a couple of other programmes that have been really successful over the last couple of years in this space, the junior apprenticeships programme, which is available now in seven out of our nine colleges, really targets those who are at school at the most risk of falling out of the system, and offering that blend of academic and vocational experience. Another area would be the tailored work experience programme, as well, that Careers Wales runs, and we've seen some real success there in terms of those who are at risk of being NEET, having that kind of experience of employment and vocational, and then being kept within the system.

Perfect, thanks.

Diolch. Mi wnawn ni ddod yn ôl at brentisiaethau. Mae hynny'n thema sydd ar wahân gyda ni. Felly, mae Art wedi 'sneak-o' cwestiwn mewn fanna, ond mae hynny'n iawn, Art, dim problem o gwbl. Mae nifer fawr o siaradwyr gen i nawr. Felly, Sam, plîs, os gelli di ddod i mewn.

Diolch, Chair. Thank you very much. Good morning, Deputy Minister.

Bore da.

Good to have you with us this morning. Just going back to the funding for our colleges, just to be really clear on this, colleges are saying that they are currently educating nearly 5,000 learners who aren't funded placements. Are you aware of any other areas in education where that takes place, where schools or universities are teaching students without funding to do the job?

I'm not aware that it affects other sectors in the same way. As I said earlier on, I think it's a success story around FE, but that brings about its own challenges. So, as I remarked earlier on, we are keeping a very close eye on developments in all the colleges across Wales, working with Medr and ColegauCymru. As I said, Medr have already put in £6.25 million, but I will be making the case, in these difficult discussions we're having around finance, for more money to be put in to support the FE provision.

Thanks, Minister. And do you think, therefore, it's a fair level playing field for colleges at the moment, if that's the case, where schools and universities are getting the funding required to do the job but colleges aren't?

Yes, and we want that level playing field, of course we do. And we want as many young people to go on to the courses they choose to go on to, because if we don't provide them with those opportunities—and I understand there are waiting lists in some colleges—then they are at risk of becoming NEET, which is the last thing we want, because they have made that very deliberate choice about their next step in their learning pathway. And if they come across a closed door, then that may be the only chance that they will have. So, we've got to support them as best we can.

Claire, would you like to come in?

Yes. As Ruth was saying earlier, I think it's probably worth noting that the funding methodology that was agreed with the sector about 10 years ago now is just not coping with the additional participation rates that we're seeing right now, and it's also complicated by additional complex learners going through the system. So, FE is dealing with a specific issue right now, and Medr are looking at that. So, I think it is something that we're taking very seriously.

And if I may, Chair, just briefly on this point—

Yes. I'll bring Lynne in then.

You mentioned earlier, Deputy Minister, the conversations you're having across the Cabinet to tackle some of these issues. Are they willing to chip in to support colleges, if that's the case? If they're sitting around the table and recognising the challenges that colleges ae facing and some of the opportunities that colleges can present, are they willing to chip in from their own budgets to support this issue?

Well, this is a live discussion, and I think colleagues around the Cabinet table are fully aware of the pressures on FE and also are fully cognisant of the pressures around the NEET agenda as well. So, it's a collective responsibility.

But if I can just add to Claire's point, we need, maybe, to look at the funding formula again, because it is based on the previous year's figures. So, if you suddenly have a spike, as we did in the last academic year, and this academic year, then there's always going to be a lag, there's always going to be a catch-up process. So, that is something, because of the learning we've experienced in the last and this academic year, that we have to take on board. But, also, there are demographic reasons as well as to why there's an increased number of young people in the system currently, but that is likely to fall, I think, from 2028 onwards. So, there are demographic issues that we have to take account of as well.

Diolch, Sam. Lynne.

Thank you. I think Sam makes a very important point about a level playing field, because, obviously, you've announced a review of higher education, but we know that there are these huge pressures in FE. And, for the record, the £6.25 million extra was in the last budget, so that's not new money. There's been no new money from the current Government and, every week that goes on, FE is under more pressure. So, I hope that when we get to November, there will be an announcement on that money. You've said maybe we should look at the funding formula. I think that should be more than a 'maybe'. So, are you willing to commit, just as you've done with HE, to reviewing the way FE is funded, to put it on a more sustainable footing?

I'd like to ask, as well: obviously, in the budget next year, there's an identified £40 million gap in FE funding, and the sector are hearing that they could have, actually, a cut in funding, which is going to have a potentially huge impact if that's true, so what discussions are you having with Cabinet colleagues?

But I'd like to ask, as well: what assessment have you and officials made of whether you are putting Medr in a position where they're in breach of their legal duties under the tertiary education and research legislation, where they have a legal duty to provide for 16 to 19-year-olds, by not providing the funding that is necessary to meet their needs? And I would like an answer to all three questions, please.

Well, I'll answer the last one first. No-one has said that we are not going to provide money for FE to take account of the increased pressures. That decision hasn't been made. So, I think the point about Medr and the breach of legal duty is not appropriate at this time, and I don't think it will ever come to that as well.

On the first point you made, about the £6.25 million, I didn't say it was new money; I said that it was money that Medr had provided, and that it straddles six months, or thereabouts, of this current academic year. So, when we know the correct figures in November, that is when we will make a decision on how best we can support FE, bearing in mind that they provide high-quality vocational pathways and they are an integral part of the whole skills system in Wales. We want FE colleges to succeed and to carry on providing the high level of support that they provide at the moment. We see them as a crucial part of that tertiary landscape.

If I could just add a few things. On the funding methodology, as I mentioned earlier, Medr has inherited a number of different models and are looking at that at the moment. Given the demographic spike that we've got at the moment, that funding model will almost right itself in the next few years, but I think it's something where it's important to make sure that we don't go through this experience again. The other thing to mention is that Medr have given colleges flexibility in their own budgets to be able to put more money from adult learning into full-time 16 to 19 provision to ensure that they're meeting that statutory duty. So, colleges have been allowed to do that.

Thank you. Obviously there are trade-offs there, aren't there, in terms of adult learning and the commitments in the tertiary education and research legislation to adult learning.

Could I just ask about Jobs Growth Wales+? I know that it sits with the Minister for enterprise, and it's good to hear that you're having those discussions, but we know that organisations like ACT are really struggling with funding for some of their 16 to 19-year-old learners, and I've raised it in the Chamber. Those young people are at risk of becoming NEET. Although the funding sits in a different directorate, can you assure us that you're having those discussions about the sufficiency of funding for learners like that who are amongst the most vulnerable?

We understand the important role of Jobs Growth Wales+. It's a conversation I had with the Minister yesterday, when we were discussing the NEETs agenda, and we know that that programme is under pressure. But we are committed to extending Jobs Growth Wales+ for another year from March of next year. So, it will continue to March 2028, because it's an important programme. Where they fail to get that support from Jobs Growth Wales because of the pressures on the demand side of that programme, then they are referred to Careers Wales, who again, through Working Wales, can provide them with extra support, advice and guidance. So, nobody slips through the net, but we understand the pressures.

Diolch. Roeddwn i eisiau gofyn cwestiwn ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd datblygu llwybrau galwedigaethol, ond rydych chi wedi ateb hynny, dwi'n credu. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth sy'n bwysig iawn i fi, yn enwedig pan rydym ni'n gweld mwy o ddysgwyr nawr sydd yn methu â dilyn llwybrau academaidd a thraddodiadol, gan fod heriau dysgu ganddyn nhw neu gan eu bod yn ffynnu mewn lleoliad anhraddodiadol. Mae hynny'n bwysig, a dwi wedi clywed ateb gennych chi ar hynny. Felly, gwnaf i ofyn un cwestiwn olaf ar y thema yma, os caf i. Sut byddwch chi'n blaenoriaethu datblygu cymwysterau ôl-16 yng Nghymru o ystyried y bydd llawer o gymwysterau yn cael eu diddymu yn dilyn diwygio cymwysterau yn Lloegr, gan effeithio ar hyfywedd cymwysterau lefel 2 a 3 mewn addysg bellach? Ni fydd y cyrsiau hynny yn gallu bodoli bellach oni bai ein bod ni hefyd yn diwygio ac yn datblygu ein cymwysterau ein hunain.

Mae hynny'n rhywbeth sy'n ein poeni ni'n fawr. Dwi a'r Gweinidog addysg wedi cael nifer o gyfarfodydd â Cymwysterau Cymru i edrych ar y sefyllfa. Fel mae pawb yn gwybod, mae'r adran addysg yn San Steffan wedi penderfynu cymryd llwybr gwahanol o ran sut maen nhw'n darparu cymwysterau galwedigaethol. Mae ganddyn nhw V courses a nifer o bethau eraill sy'n mynd i newid y sefyllfa'n llwyr. A chanlyniad hynny, wrth gwrs, yw bod byrddau addysg galwedigaethol efallai'n mynd i gael eu diariannu yn y dyfodol, sydd wedyn ag oblygiadau i ni yng Nghymru, achos mae ein system alwedigaethol ni wedi ei alinio yn agos iawn i beth yw'r ddarpariaeth o ran y cymwysterau yn Lloegr. Felly, yn y sgyrsiau dŷn ni wedi eu cael, dwi a'r Gweinidog wedi'i gwneud hi'n glir ein bod ni eisiau symud—nid efelychu beth sydd yn digwydd yn Lloegr, ond rŷn ni eisiau symud i fan lle mae'r cymwysterau ôl-16 wedi cael eu gwneud ar gyfer Cymru. Mae ein hanghenion ni, ein tirwedd addysg ni, ac iaith a diwylliant, yn golygu bod gyda ni sefyllfa wahanol iawn. Mae yna berygl bod yna gyfnod interim, hiatws, wrth i ni symud o un system i'r llall, ond mae Cymwysterau Cymru yn cynnal sgyrsiau gyda'r byrddau dyfarnu ar hyn o bryd i sicrhau ein bod ni yn llenwi'r bwlch yna a phrynu amser er mwyn i ni gyflwyno cymwysterau a wnaethpwyd yng Nghymru.

Diolch. Os nad oes unrhyw gwestiwn pellach ar y thema yma, fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at addysg uwch. Dwi'n gwybod bod nifer fawr o bobl eisiau gofyn cwestiynau fan hyn. Lynne, gwnaf ddod atoch chi yn gyntaf ar addysg uwch.

Thank you. You won't be surprised to hear me ask about the review of Seren. I'm really worried about it. You've talked about combining Reaching Wider and Seren, and they are two very different programmes. I'd like to know initially what the process is going to be for taking that work forward. There is an evaluation ongoing of Seren. It would be good to have an update on the dates for that and to know what you're willing to share with the committee. A piece of work was also commissioned to look at how we make sure that Seren doesn't miss some of the brightest learners, which isn't the same as opening it to everyone. Can we have an update on that work, please? A commitment was made by me in the last committee meeting that I attended that a financial update would be provided to the predecessor committee on Seren, but because dissolution happened before the last meeting of this committee, that has never been provided. I think it would be good for the committee to have some comprehensive information on Seren. And I've got some questions on plan 2 at some point then.

Thank you, Lynne. We've had numerous discussions around Seren. It is clearly in our manifesto that we want to review Seren. Many of us believe, including myself, that the emphasis had changed during the course of Seren to encourage young people—this is the perception—to leave Wales to study elsewhere, mainly across the border in England. That had unintended consequences for our universities here in Wales. My priority is to support our universities—eight of them we have here in Wales—because we've seen over the years that enrolments in those universities have gone down. I don't believe that the Seren programme has helped our Welsh universities.

I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, because there are so many good elements in Seren that I want to keep, and you've alluded to one that is extremely important, namely to provide that stretch, that challenge to the most able and talented young people. We know that that is maybe one element of the whole education system that we haven't quite got right: how do we challenge them even more? That has to remain in whatever this new programme will look like.

But I'm also concerned about reaching out to those young people in disadvantaged communities, which is what the Reaching Wider programme is doing. I want to see more of those considering higher education as an option. Our levels of engagement with higher education for young people from disadvantaged backgrounds are lower than any other part of the United Kingdom. That is not where we want to be. I want to raise the ambitions and the aspirations of those young people, but also provide the stretch for the more able and talented, and that is the work that officials are doing at the moment around shaping this new programme.

Around the evaluation, that is currently being done. I can't remember the date, so I'm going to turn to officials to see if they can help me on this.

It's towards the end of this year. We can give you more detail on the evaluation and on the financial side. You mentioned the process to that. We're not going to be reshaping Seren and trying to bring in the more disadvantaged elements, as the Minister pointed out, in isolation. We're establishing a stakeholder group with Universities Wales, ColegauCymru, other parts of the sector, schools, et cetera, to make sure that whatever we do put in place really meets the needs of learners and brings in those views from people who've been involved in delivering Seren and Reaching Wider up to now. They're going to be absolutely critical in that.

Will that group include Oxford and Cambridge?

We will be talking to Oxford and Cambridge as part of this. Whether they're on the group, I don't know. I'll get back to you.

Lynne, did you want to come in with your plan 2 question?

I haven't had an answer on the refocusing work—I can't remember what it was called—to make sure that young people like the asylum seeker we had at the celebration who are really able and are up for that stretch aren't missed.

Absolutely. I can give you a stone-clad commitment that that will absolutely remain.

Okay. Well, if the committee could have a comprehensive note on Seren—

Yes.

If I can move on to plan 2, there was a commitment not to undertake the threshold freeze on plan 2 loans that was announced in England. It was also clear that that would be a matter for the incoming Government to take forward. I'd be keen to have an update on whether we're still committed in Wales to not putting young people through that threshold freeze, what discussions there have been with HM Treasury on this, and whether there's been any progress on the workaround to enable us to have a different system in Wales.

That, as you know, Lynne, is a hugely complex area—student loans, student fees, repayment thresholds, caps and so on. We haven't made a decision yet, and we are still discussing. The wider picture, if I can start with that, will be one of the priorities of the panel reviewing higher education in Wales, because we want to get the balance right between what is right for the institutions themselves, how they can get funding through student fees, and what is right for our learners as well, the students themselves, because what we've seen over the last few years is student fees going up and up, and their debt increasing year by year to a point where young people are now openly asking themselves, 'Do I really want to go to university and be burdened with this lifelong debt?' It is really important to get the balance right, and also to get value for money for what the Welsh Government is putting in in terms of grant support. All of that is currently being discussed. We've made no absolute decision yet around plan 2, but obviously, with the Treasury breathing down our necks, we will have to make a decision soon. But I'm not in a position today to tell you what the decision is.

You said that this is a matter for the review, but the review is a comprehensive piece of work, and I know that the Treasury want a decision on this, and that a workaround will take time. Are you able to give the committee any indication of when that will be? Because also, young people in Wales need certainty about whether they're going to be subjected to this freeze.

Of course they do, yes. There's the short-term decision around the plan and the freeze, which we will have to make in the next couple of weeks, but there's the longer term plan as well, around how we support our university sector, and also bearing in mind how our students can bear the debt, as well. I don't know whether—.

Shall I come in? You mentioned the workaround, and there are a couple of things. We are still actively talking as officials to the Student Loans Company and the UK Government about all of those options. It's probably also worth noting the UK Parliament's Treasury Committee report on this, which the UK Government replied to recently. There isn't a clear sense yet of whether they will retain that freeze in the budget discussions they've got. So, we are retaining discussions with the UK Government around this as we assess, as you'll be aware, that balancing act of the right thing to do around the freeze.

Claire's absolutely right. If I can just add to that, we aren't clear, therefore, what the UK Government's intentions are around plan 2. If they change their position, that changes the whole situation for us as well. So I think it's a wait to see what the UK Government are doing. But all of this will come out in the autumn budget, so that's only a couple of weeks away.

One final question, Lynne, before we move on.

Just one final question on mental health. I care about higher education and further education, but a particular frustration is that £2 million was made available to Medr, which would include the roll-out of the mental health university liaison project. That was a recommendation of the predecessor committee back in 2023, and we're still in a position where only Cardiff and south-east Wales have that support. I believe that that support is vital to look after young people who are away from home, from their communities, from their GPs. What are you going to do to make sure that Medr actually deliver on this?

I am committed to ensuring that mental health and additional learning needs support and the general well-being of our learners remains high on this Government's agenda. But on the specific programme that you refer to, I don't know whether officials can help me in understanding how that has been rolled out across the sector.

This is something that was developed by Cardiff University, and there have been issues, I think, around data sharing and how that would work in terms of a roll-out. I know it's something that Medr is reflecting on at the moment—

They've been reflecting a long time, Ruth.

They have, yes. But I think it's something that they're looking at, to see what the best process is and what the best programme would look like in this space.

Behind your question is the whole issue, which we discussed earlier on, about supporting those most vulnerable young people, and to guide them through those learning pathways where they are most vulnerable. Absolutely, I am committed. Obviously, being fairly new in the job, I will be specifically talking to Medr about that. I haven't had that conversation yet, but I will.

Thanks.

Lynne, perhaps we can agree to follow up as a committee on that particular roll-out of that programme. As you say, if they've been reflecting for a while, we need to understand why. Diolch. Mair.

Diolch yn fawr. Ddirprwy Weinidog, rydych chi'n barod eisoes wedi sôn am lefelau cyfranogiad, a dwi'n meddwl bod y lefelau cyfranogiad yng Nghymru yr isaf ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig ac yn llai na 30 y cant. Buasai fo'n dda clywed am rai o'r cynlluniau sydd gennych chi mewn golwg er mwyn cryfhau dilyniant addysg uwch a sicrhau bod mwy o ddysgwyr yn gallu cael mynediad at addysg uwch. Felly, buasai fo'n dda os ydych chi'n gallu ymhelaethu ar hynna. Dwi'n meddwl bod yr hyn roeddech chi'n sôn amdano fo o ran benthyciadau myfyrwyr mwy na thebyg yn rhoi rhai disgyblion a myfyrwyr off dod i'r brifysgol, o bosib. Gwnaf i fynd ymlaen i'r cwestiwn nesaf, ond efallai gallwch chi ymhelaethu ar y pwynt yna.

Mae prifysgolion yn chwarae rhan hanfodol wrth ddarparu'r sgiliau lefel uwch a'r ymchwil ac arloesedd sydd eu hangen ar Gymru. Fodd bynnag, mae'r data HESA diweddaraf yn dangos dirywiad sylweddol yn sefyllfa ariannol y sector, gyda'r diffyg gweithredol cyfunol wedi cynyddu o £76.6 miliwn i £130.9 miliwn mewn un flwyddyn, ac mae chwech o wyth prifysgol Cymru yn cofnodi diffyg gweithredol. Felly, beth yw cynllun y Llywodraeth i sicrhau bod prifysgolion Cymru yn parhau yn ariannol gynaliadwy ac yn gystadleuol er mwyn iddynt allu parhau i gyflawni rôl hanfodol? Efallai y byddwch chi'n gallu ymhelaethu mwy ar yr adolygiad o'r sefyllfa addysg uwch. Y pryder sydd gen i hefyd o ran yr amserlen i'r adolygiad hwnnw ydy y byddwn ni, efallai, yn gweld toriadau cyn bod yr adroddiad hwnnw gan yr adolygiad yn dod allan. Mae hynna'n bryder mawr, yn amlwg, ar draws y sector. Diolch.

Rŷch chi yn hollol iawn, a dyna'r prif reswm pam y gwnes i sefydlu'r panel yma fel un o'r penderfyniadau cyntaf y gwnes i ar ôl dod i'r swydd hon. Mae'r sefyllfa'n bryderus yn y rhan fwyaf o'n prifysgolion ni, fel y dywedoch chi: dyled ar draws y sector addysg uwch o ryw £130 miliwn, ac rŷn ni'n gwybod bod ambell i brifysgol—rŷn ni wedi gweld hyn gyda'r diswyddiadau sydd wedi bod—yn wynebu trafferthion ariannol sylweddol.

Mae yna ddwy ffordd o weithredu. Mae'r cyfnod mwy hirdymor, sef gwaith y panel, sydd yn edrych ar gael y balans roeddwn i'n sôn amdano yn gynharach yn iawn, rhwng cefnogi'r prifysgolion drwy ffioedd a sicrhau bod y myfyrwyr yn gallu teimlo eu bod nhw yn gallu fforddio mynd i'r brifysgol. Felly, mae eisiau i waith y panel yna gael ei wneud.

Ond yn y tymor byr, mae Medr yn cadw llygad ar y sefyllfa, a dwi yn cael diweddariad bron yn wythnosol gan Medr ynglŷn â chyflwr rhai o'n prifysgolion ni. Mae gyda ni gynlluniau wrth gefn rhag ofn bod galw ar Lywodraeth Cymru i'w cefnogi nhw. Ond dŷn ni ddim yn y sefyllfa yna eto. Mae'r sgyrsiau'n gyfrinachol. Wrth gwrs dwi ddim yn gallu rhannu'r rheini gyda chi fel pwyllgor, ond dwi'n gwbl ymwybodol o'r pwysau sydd arnyn nhw.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ateb yna. Wrth ystyried yr adolygiad, rydych chi wedi pwysleisio y bydd yna ymgysylltu efo rhanddeiliaid ac y bydd hynna'n ganolog i'r adolygiad, a bod grŵp cynghori rhanddeiliaid yn cael ei sefydlu. Allwch chi roi mwy o eglurder ynghylch sut y bydd myfyrwyr, staff, undebau llafur ac undebau myfyrwyr yn cael eu cynnwys yn yr adolygiad yna, a pha amserlen sydd gennych chi mewn golwg ar gyfer sefydlu'r grŵp yna?

Mae hwnna yn gwestiwn da iawn. Fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, fe wnes i gyhoeddi'r wythnos diwethaf mai yr Athro Patrick Prendergast fydd yn arwain yr adolygiad yma fel cadeirydd. Mi fyddaf i, gobeithio, wythnos nesaf yn cyhoeddi enwau'r panelwyr hefyd a fydd yn rhan o'r grŵp bach yna a fydd yn edrych ar ddyfodol ein prifysgolion ni. Ond ochr yn ochr â'r panel o arbenigwyr yna, mi fydd yna banel neu grŵp o randdeiliad, ac ymhlith y rhanddeiliad yna mi fydd yr undebau llafur i gyd yn cael eu cynrychioli—y rhai sydd yn ymwneud â'r sector trydyddol. Mi fydd darparwyr yn eistedd o gwmpas y grŵp bach yna, ac mi fydd Medr yno, yn naturiol, yn cadw llygad ar y cyfan. Ond gwaith y grŵp rhanddeiliad yna yw bwydo gwybodaeth a thystiolaeth i mewn i'r panel a bod yn rhyw fath o fwrdd ymgynghori, mewn gwirionedd, i'r panel, fel bod y ddau yn gweithio gyda'i gilydd i gael y cynlyniad gorau ar gyfer addysg drydyddol yng Nghymru.

And just to add that NUS will be part of that.

Yes—sorry. All the unions, that's right, including NUS, will be on that stakeholder group.

Diolch yn fawr. Dwi'n falch o glywed hwnna. Dwi'n dod o gefndir undebau myfyrwyr, felly mae gen i ddiddordeb, yn sicr, o ran y rhan yna.

O ran yr adolygiad a'r gwaith yma fydd yn mynd rhagddo, un o'r pethau roedd gennyf i ddiddordeb ynddo fo o ran y trafodaethau mae Llywodraeth Cymru a Medr wedi'u cael efo'r sector, neu a fydd yn gallu eu cael fel rhan o'r adolygiad, ydy modelau newydd o gydweithio, gan gynnwys rhannu gwasanaethau a chydweithio ar gaffael er mwyn lleihau costau gweinyddol a diogelu'r addysgu ac ymchwil a phrofiad y myfyrwyr, a hynny ar draws addysg uwch ac, i raddau, addysg bellach hefyd o bosib. Mae gan Iwerddon, er enghraifft, system gaffael ar y cyd, a dwi'n meddwl bod yna gyfle o bosib i wneud arbedion a gweithio'n fwy effeithiol. Mae Cymru'n wlad fach, ac efallai bod modd gwneud hwnna. Ydy hwnna'n elfen y byddwch chi'n ei ystyried o fewn yr adolygiad?

Gaf i ddod i mewn ar hynny? Roedd cwestiwn gen i ar hynny hefyd, a dwi'n meddwl bod Mair wedi gwneud pwynt da. Fy nghwestiwn i oedd: a fydd yr adolygiad yn cwmpasu effeithlonrwydd prosesau a gweithdrefnau prifysgolion? Felly, yn union, fel rwyt ti'n dweud, dod â phrosesau a gweithdrefnau ynghyd a chydweithio, lle bo'n bosib, i wneud pethau'n fwy effeithlon. Dwi'n credu bod hynny'n rhywbeth, efallai, sydd angen ei hystyried.

Diolch. Gwnaf i gyfuno'r ddau gwestiwn yna. Yn sicr, bydd y panel yn edrych ar bob un o'r agweddau rydych chi wedi cyfeirio atyn nhw. Beth rydw i wedi ei ddweud wrth y cadeirydd yn glir—y sgwrs yn Saesneg, wrth gwrs—yw 'Nothing is off the table.' Dyna'r cylch gorchwyl, bod dim cyfyngiadau ar beth maen nhw'n gallu edrych arno. Dwi'n disgwyl iddyn nhw edrych ar ffyrdd o arbed costau drwy gydweithio o gwmpas gweinyddu a chaffael, yn sicr. Ond un o'r cwestiynau i fi yw pa fath o brifysgolion ydyn ni eu hangen ar gyfer y dyfodol. Wrth i'r byd economaidd newid, mae angen i'n prifysgolion ni adlewyrchu hynny hefyd. Un o'r pethau roeddwn i'n hoffi'n fawr o ran profiad yr Athro Patrick Prendergast yw ei fod e'n gadeirydd ar glwstwr o brifysgolion yn ne-ddwyrain Iwerddon ar hyn o bryd sydd yn brifysgolion technolegol, sy'n pwysleisio, fel roedd, efallai, ein hen polytechnics ni'n arfer ei wneud, y pwyslais yna ar sgiliau galwedigaethol, sgiliau technegol. Dwi'n awyddus iawn i'w weld e'n dod â'r profiad yna i mewn i'r sgwrs i weld tybed a ydy hyn yn rhywbeth y gall ein prifysgolion ni ei hystyried ar gyfer symud ymlaen i'r dyfodol.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Dydy hwn ddim yn gwestiwn, o anghenraid, yn seiliedig yn unig ar addysg uwch, ond cwestiwn sy'n cwmpasu sawl un o'n themau: allwch chi roi mwy o wybodaeth am ddyfodol cyllid Taith os gwelwch yn dda?

Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod Taith wedi bod yn gynllun llwyddiannus dros ben. Un o nodweddion gorau Taith yw ei fod wedi llwyddo i gyrraedd grwpiau yn y trydydd sector a chyrraedd grwpiau sy'n cael eu tangynrychioli, grwpiau o bobl ifanc a fyddai efallai byth wedi cael cyfleoedd trwy'r hen gynllun Erasmus, achos doedd y cynllun hwnnw ddim wedi cael ei deilwra ar gyfer y math yna o bobl.

Gwnaf i byth anghofio cael cyflwyniad ar Taith yn y Senedd ddiwethaf, a chwrdd â grŵp o bobl ifanc—dwi'n meddwl mai o Wynedd oedden nhw. Dwi ddim yn cofio ble fuon nhw. O GISDA oedden nhw, dwi'n meddwl. Dwi ddim yn cofio ble fuon nhw ar yr ymweliad—Estonia neu rywle fel yna. Doedd rhai ohonyn nhw ddim wedi bod yng Nghaerdydd o'r blaen, heb sôn am fynd dramor. Fe wnaethon ni glywed eu tystiolaeth nhw ar sut roedd hynny wedi newid eu bywydau nhw, eu bydolwg nhw, a'u bod yn gweld eu dyfodol mewn ffordd wahanol, bod uchelgais yn newid ar sail y profiad yna.

Mae gennym ni Erasmus+ yn dod i fodolaeth, a diolch byth amdano fe, achos mae e eto yn ffynhonnell arian bwysig i'r sector trydyddol ac i waith ieuenctid. Ond dwi'n awyddus i gadw'r elfennau pwysicaf yna o Taith i fynd, ochr yn ochr gydag Erasmus. Ac maen nhw’n sgyrsiau dwi’n eu cael ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â faint o gyllid dŷn ni’n gallu ei roi tuag at gadw Taith i fynd. Ond dwi yn credu bod yna le o hyd i gefnogi'r grwpiau anodd eu cyrraedd yna er mwyn rhoi cyfleoedd iddyn nhw, tra, ar yr un pryd, yn datblygu capasiti'r sector i fynd am arian Erasmus, fydd yn newid y gêm yn llwyr o ran maint yr arian sydd ar gael.

Diolch. Catherine.

I was going to ask a question, really, about Taith and Erasmus. So, last time Erasmus was available, there was a whole plethora of issues surrounding Erasmus. So, I'm hoping that Erasmus+, now, will be an improvement on that. And it was good to hear you talking about retaining some of the elements of Taith. So, what I'm wondering is: are we able to get a timetable of when those decisions will be made on Taith, when it's going to be continuing, and in what form, and how Erasmus is going to work alongside that?

Yes, good. So, the decision on Taith will be made in time for the budget. It will be a line, hopefully, in that budget, which will show how much financial support we can provide for Taith. But the calls for applications for Erasmus will be opening up in November. So, we have a kind of a twin-track approach. We've got to ensure that Taith, in some form, remains a live process for people, but also we need to raise awareness around the huge potential to access the Erasmus+ funding as well. So, there are calls for applications to be submitted in November, and I think the window closes in February 2027. So, it's only a small window of opportunity, and I know that our tertiary sector people are working on applications as we speak, to get them ready for that window opening in November.

Okay. So, I'm hoping, then, that, the way that Erasmus works now, it has been updated, because I know there were issues with paperwork with students last time—students coming home and they weren't matching with the standards here et cetera, et cetera. So, I'm just hoping those have been ironed out and they're going to be looked at in relation to that.

So, UK Government have offered the administration of Erasmus+ to the British Council. And I met with the chief executive of the British Council, and the Wales manager, Ruth Cox—. Is she the Wales manager—

She is, yes.

—only last week. So, some of these issues around making it easier for applications to be made were discussed. We also discussed with them as well the issue around bilingualism and that application forms and the branding around Erasmus+ are bilingual. So, we've had assurances that that will happen.

It's just worth noting as well that, as officials, obviously we're working really closely with Department for Education officials in terms of the development of the new Erasmus programme, and have fed in a lot of the best practice and the learnings from the Taith programme, particularly in terms of that kind of wider engagement that Taith has managed to achieve. So, that's gone into the thinking on how Erasmus+ has been developed.

And I think it's worth saying as well that Erasmus officials recognise the success of Taith, and have taken on board the learning from Taith. So, I hope that is reflected in how they score and assess applications as well.

Diolch. Os nad oes cwestiynau eraill ar addysg uwch—

—if there are no further questions on higher education—

—fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen nawr at brentisiaethau. Rŷn ni wedi cael tamaid bach ar brentisiaethau yn barod, ond mi wnawn ni ddod nôl at y pwnc. Dwi'n gwybod bod nifer fawr o'n Haelodau ni â diddordeb mawr yn y pwnc yma. Mi wnaf ddod nawr atat ti, Beca, os yn bosib, plîs.

Diolch.

Mae'n dod ymlaen yn awtomatig.

Roeddech chi'n sôn yn gynharach am y gynhadledd sgiliau a bod yna rhai o'r darparwyr mwyaf—[Anghlywadwy.] Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n wych, achos, yn fy ardal i, ardal wledig, asgwrn cefn ein heconomi ydy'r busnesau llai, y mentrau bach a chanolig eu maint. A beth rydym ni'n glywed oddi wrthyn nhw ydy ei fod o'n her iddyn nhw allu cynnig a chynnal prentisiaethau, er bod nifer ohonyn nhw yn awyddus i wneud hynny. Yn aml iawn—[Anghlywadwy.]—pobl ifanc—[Anghlywadwy.]—heriol ofnadwy, yn ariannol, iddyn nhw gynnig hynny, ac mae hynny'n broblem yn fy ardal i. Wedyn, sut byddwch chi'n mynd ati i drio cefnogi y sector arbennig yna, felly?

Rŷn ni'n cydnabod bod hynny yn her i'r busnesau bach. Os caf i gymryd cam yn ôl, mae'r awdit yma o sgiliau sydd yn cael ei gynnal ar hyn o bryd yn mynd i helpu pob sector i adnabod lle mae'r anghenion a'r galw am sgiliau yn mynd i fod yn y dyfodol. Digwydd bod, yn y sgwrs ges ei gyda'r Gweinidog dros yr economi ddoe, roedden ni'n trafod sut mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn gallu rhoi mwy o gefnogaeth i gyflogwyr, bach a mawr, i gymryd mwy o brentisiaethau ymlaen, ac mae'r trafodaethau yna yn mynd i barhau. Felly, dwi ddim yn gallu rhoi ateb clir i chi heddiw, ond beth rydw i yn gallu dweud yw bod y sgwrs yna yn un bwysig, ac mi fyddwn ni, gobeithio, yn dod â rhyw fath o strategaeth ger bron i weld pa fath o incentives rŷn ni'n gallu eu rhoi i fusnesau bach i gymryd prentisiaethau ymlaen, neu hyd yn oed i roi profiad gwaith i'r rhai sydd yn NEET, er enghraifft, er mwyn cynnig llwybrau mwy meddal iddyn nhw i mewn i'r gweithle.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ateb yna. Mae o mor bwysig, ac yn arbennig o bwysig yn fy ardal i.

Mater arall sydd yn codi—. Yn amlwg, y deheuad efo prentisiaethau ydy bod pobl ifanc yn gallu camu i mewn i'r byd yna ar unrhyw bwynt yn eu bywyd nhw. Ond rhywbeth arall sydd yn codi ydy, pan mae pobl ifanc yn cychwyn prentisiaethau yn 18 oed, yn hytrach na gyda 16, pan fyddan nhw'n cyrraedd y trothwyon cyflogi, maen nhw'n mynd yn ddrud i'w cyflogi ar y pwynt yna, ac efo llai o sgiliau na pherson, hwyrach, wnaeth ddechrau yn 16. Wedyn, mae pobl sydd yn cychwyn prentisiaethau yn 18 oed dan anfantais, o bosib, oherwydd eu bod nhw wedi mynd i mewn i'r byd yna yn hwyrach. Wedyn, os mai'r deheuad ydy bod pobl ifanc yn gallu camu mewn i'r byd yna ar unrhyw bwynt, sut ydyn ni'n dod i'r afael efo'r heriau yna eto i'r cyflogwr, mewn ffordd?

Mae'r pwynt hynny yn un da. Beth dwi'n teimlo mae angen inni ei wneud, yn gyffredinol, yw codi proffil prentisiaethau fel ffordd amgen i fynd mewn i fyd gwaith. Nawr, mae gyda ni nifer o raglenni sydd yn rhoi'r gefnogaeth a'r wybodaeth yna i bobl ifanc. Ond os gallaf i droi at swyddogion, er mwyn i fi ddeall hefyd beth yw'r rhaglenni sydd ar gael i'r oedrannau gwahanol, sef y pwynt roeddech chi'n ei wneud.

I think it's worth noting at the moment that we're going under a bit of a programme of reform for apprenticeships. So, the responsibility will be transferring over to Medr in 2027. They are currently looking at new frameworks and all of those issues that you raise about those skill levels and those entry points, and particularly around some of the complexity that SMEs face in terms of the system, are being thought through as part of that reform of apprenticeships. We're currently consulting on a new apprenticeship specification, and that consultation is open until December. And, again, that is looking at how then powers will transfer over to Medr, which give them the duty to look at all those issues that you flagged.

So, it's a work in progress is the point that you're making.

Yes.

Gaf i—?

Ie, wrth gwrs.

Mae yna issue, onid oes, efo pobl nad ydynt yn cwblhau eu prentisiaeth, a dwi'n gweld, yn y rhesymau sydd yn cael eu nodi dros hynny, y ddau reswm amlycaf ydy rhesymau personol a hefyd 'wedi mynd i mewn i waith'. Ydym ni'n gwybod a ydy'r bobl sydd yn gadael prentisiaeth oherwydd eu bod nhw'n mynd i mewn i waith—? Ydy o'n waith sydd yn gysylltiedig efo'r maes maen nhw wedi hyfforddi ar ei gyfer o, ynteu a ydy o'n fater o'u bod nhw'n gorfod gadael y cynllun achos eu bod nhw'n gorfod ennill yn unrhyw le? Ydyn ni'n gwybod beth ydy'r stori sy'n eistedd tu cefn i'r ystadegyn yna?

Wel, dwi ddim yn gwybod yr ateb, ac efallai bydd swyddogion yn gallu helpu gyda hynny, ond un peth sydd yn glir yw bod y canrannau sydd yn methu cwblhau eu cwrs prentisiaeth yn uwch mewn rhai sectorau na'i gilydd. Ac mae hynny'n awgrymu efallai fod yna ddiffyg swyddi ar gael iddyn nhw ar ddiwedd y daith, ond mae yna elfen fwy personol hefyd. Felly, drwy'r gwaith sydd yn digwydd ar hyn o bryd, lle bydd Medr yn cymryd y cyfrifoldeb strategol am ddyfodol prentisiaethau, mae angen inni sicrhau bod yna gefnogaeth ar lefel bersonol hefyd, o gwmpas cefnogaeth iechyd meddwl, amgylchiadau personol, anabledd, gofal plant—beth bynnag yw'r rhwystrau yna, ein bod ni'n ymwybodol, a bod yna systemau gyda ni sy'n gallu cefnogi hynny hefyd.

Ond y peth pwysig yw—jest i efallai edrych ar y pwynt ehangach dŷch chi'n ei wneud—drwy'r awdit sgiliau yma, gobeithio wedyn ein bod ni'n gallu alinio'r prentisiaethau yn y dyfodol i le mae sectorau'r twf yna. Rŷn ni'n gwybod, er enghraifft, yng Ngwynedd, mae yna brinder pobl â sgiliau adeiladu gwahanol er mwyn adeiladu'r tai cymdeithasol rŷn ni eisiau gweld mwy ohonyn nhw'n cael eu codi, a hefyd gwella drwy retrofitting y tai sydd gyda ni'n bresennol. Felly, mae angen y sgiliau penodol ar gyfer gwneud hynny ac felly mae angen inni sicrhau bod y twf yna o sgiliau yn dod trwy ein colegau a darparwyr prentisiaethau.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch. Roedd yna ysgol gyda ni yn y galeri, ond, wrth gwrs, wnes i ddim cael cyfle i ddweud 'croeso' wrthyn nhw. Maen nhw wedi mynd nawr; gobeithio eu bod nhw wedi mwynhau'r drafodaeth. Ond roeddwn i eisiau cydnabod eu bod nhw wedi bod mewn yn ymgysylltu gyda ni heddiw fel rhan o'r sesiwn. Mair, wnaf i ddod atat ti, plîs.

Diolch yn fawr—

Sori. Allaf jest torri ar draws? Maen nhw'n dod nôl i mewn—efallai fod yna grŵp arall. Gaf i groesawu chi, yr ysgol sydd newydd ymuno â ni? Croeso mawr i chi. Fe wnawn i roi chwifiad bach i chi bore yma. Rŷn ni'n trafod rhywbeth pwysig iawn. Mae'r holl waith rŷn ni'n ei wneud yn bwysig, gyda llaw, ond rŷn ni'n trafod prentisiaethau'r bore yma gyda'r Dirprwy Weinidog. Ac rwy'n mynd i droi at Mair nawr i ofyn ei chwestiwn, plîs.

Diolch yn fawr. Roeddech chi'n sôn yn fanna—roedd lot o bethau roeddech chi'n sôn am fanna sydd yn eithaf perthnasol i bethau rydym ni wedi eu gweld yn yr etholaeth. Sôn am sgiliau adeiladwaith, er enghraifft, roedd Beca a fi wedi bod yn Academi Adra, lle maen nhw'n gwneud cynllun penodol o ran cael pobl ifanc i mewn i wneud cyrsiau a phrentisiaethau adeiladwaith. Ac yn rhan arall ar o fy etholaeth—rydych chi wedi cyfeirio'n barod at brosiect Wylfa neu Gwyndod—mi fydd yna angen mawr am sgiliau adeiladwaith yn fanna. Mae'r awdit a'r cynllun prentisiaethau newydd, gobeithio, yn mynd i gyfrannu at adnabod y bylchau yna hefyd.

A rydych chi wedi ateb un o fy nghwestiynau i, mewn ffordd, ynglŷn â sut rydym ni'n edrych ar—. Sori, dwi wedi mynd yn flanc rŵan. Beth oeddwn i'n trio dweud? Yr elfen a oedd Beca yn cyfeirio ato yn fanna o ran gweithio efo cyflogwyr. Ond eisiau cyfeirio at yr ardoll prentisiaethau oeddwn i. So, gan dderbyn nad ydy'r ardoll prentisiaethau wedi'i ddatganoli, pa drafodaethau ydych chi wedi'u cael efo Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig ynghylch sicrhau bod Cymru'n cael gwerth mwyaf o'r system bresennol a sut mae'r gwaith hwnnw'n lliwio, efallai, model cyllido newydd mae Medr yn eu datblygu er mwyn cynyddu nifer y prentisiaethau, ac, yn bwysicach, gwella cyfraddau cwblhau?

A dwi newydd gofio beth oeddwn i eisiau cyfeirio ato fe gynnau. O ran y cynllun prentisiaethau newydd, dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n hanfodol ein bod ni'n gallu—. Beth fydd y mesur o ran llwyddiant o ran y nifer o brentisiaethau, ond y cyfraddau cwblhau ac efallai pam nad ydy pobl yn cwblhau? Ond yr ardoll prentisiaethau oedd y prif gwestiwn.

Wel, mae'r ardoll prentisiaethau yn bwynt diddorol. Mae e'n gynllun ar gyfer y Deyrnas Gyfunol, ond mae'n rhaid inni gofio bod gan Gymru fodel gwahanol o gefnogi prentisiaethau, a dwi'n meddwl bod ein model ni yn well, achos bod natur yr economi yng Nghymru yn wahanol iawn. Beth sydd gyda chi yn Lloegr yw nifer o gwmnïau mawr, diwydiannau mawr, ac maen nhw'n talu ardoll i mewn i ryw bwll canolog, ac maen nhw'n cael wedyn yn ôl am y buddsoddiad hwnnw gefnogaeth i brentisiaethau. Yng Nghymru, mae 95 y cant o gwmnïau yn ein heconomi ni yn gwmnïau bach a chanolig. Felly, mae'n darpariaeth ni o ran cefnogaeth i brentisiaethau yn golygu bod pob cwmni, beth bynnag yw eu maint nhw, yn cael cyfle i gael cefnogaeth i brentisiaethau. Yn Lloegr, dim ond y rhai sydd yn talu'r ardoll sydd yn cael y budd yn ôl. Felly, mae'n dull ni o weithredu yn wahanol, a dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n fwy addas ar gyfer economi Cymru.

Diolch.

Diolch, Mair.

Sam, just checking that you wanted to come in.

Yes, on this particular issue, Chair. Thank you.

No problem.

On the apprenticeship levy—and thank you for your response there, Deputy Minister—one of the challenges that some employers have, those who are paying into the levy, because they meet the threshold required to, is that the apprenticeship options don't suit their business needs. So, you have this slightly strange situation where you have businesses paying significant sums into a levy but are not able to access any apprentice at the back of it, because, of course, there are only four apprenticeship options here in Wales: digital, engineering, advanced manufacturing and construction. Whereas, in England, there are around 170 different options, covering all sectors, so those paying into the levy are able to have apprentices serving in those businesses. So, I wonder if that's an anomaly that you think should be addressed, because it does seem a bit strange that there are businesses paying into something and they get nothing out of it.

That's an interesting take on it. That is a scheme run by the UK Government, and I think the issue is around the apprenticeship levy that they are running. I would want us, because we're a smaller country and we understand our needs, to work on that regional and national level to understand better what those sectors are. You gave us a list of some of them there. That may well be appropriate for some parts of Wales, but, for other parts of Wales, we would need a different approach and different sectors. That is why I think our apprenticeship support is more tailored to regional needs than the apprenticeship levy.

Forgive me, the issue actually is the limited number of options of apprenticeships in Wales. So, whilst, yes, it is controlled at UK level, the choice of which courses are available in Wales is a decision for us here in Wales. So, currently, there are just four limited options that people can go into an apprenticeship on here in Wales, and they are digital, engineering, advanced manufacturing and construction, which are all very important and good. But if you happen to be in a business that has nothing to do with those four areas, you're still paying into the levy and you cannot have any apprentices in Wales to support your business. That just seems a bit perverse to me.

That is why the skills audit is so important, so that we understand on a regional and national level where those sectors, the growth sectors, are, so that when small and medium-sized businesses invest, or larger businesses invest, in apprenticeships, they get the skills or they get the support for the skills they need. That is why we need a more coherent approach to apprenticeships and skills based on evidence, and based on what employers are telling us as well—the feedback from them. So, that is why this whole audit and the summit next month will give us that evidence base.

Thanks. Thanks, Chair.

Diolch, Sam. Lis, plis.

Yn fy mhrofiad i fel cyflogwr, cyn dod fan hyn, roeddwn i jest yn gweld bod yna heriau yna o ran bod SMEs bach a phobl yn y trydydd sector ddim rili efallai bob tro yn deall yr holl beth am brentisiaethau a sut maen nhw'n gallu plygio i mewn i hynny. Dwi'n meddwl bod angen i ni godi ymwybyddiaeth am hynny. A hefyd, wrth gwrs, fel menter iaith, wrth fynd i mewn a gofyn am brentisiaeth—roeddem ni wedi ei wneud e sawl gwaith—mae cael rhywun yn darparu trwy'r Gymraeg, yn cefnogi trwy'r Gymraeg yn broblem yn ein hardaloedd ni. Mae hynny'n enghraifft o'r rhwystrau sydd yn bodoli mas yna.

Mae rhywbeth wedi ei baratoi fan hyn gyda fi, achos dwi eisiau cadarnhad gennych chi am un neu ddau o bethau, ac roeddwn i eisiau ei gael e'n iawn. Rŷch chi wedi siarad yn gadarnhaol iawn am ba mor bwysig yw prentisiaethau yng Nghymru a faint o rôl maen nhw'n chwarae. Ond wrth i'r Llywodraeth ystyried canfyddiadau'r archwiliad sgiliau cenedlaethol a pharatoi ar gyfer yr uwchgynhadledd sgiliau ar gyfer y dyfodol, pa ymrwymiad pellach y gallwch chi ei roi y bydd prentisiaethau yn cael yr un statws, cydnabyddiaeth a blaenoriaeth â chweched dosbarthiadau, addysg bellach ac addysg uwch? A wnewch chi gadarnhau y byddwch yn gweithio gyda'r Gweinidog addysg i sicrhau bod y cydraddoldeb hwn yn cael ei adlewyrchu yn y wybodaeth, cyngor ac arweiniad a gaiff pobl ifanc drwy ysgolion a Gyrfa Cymru, fel bod prentisiaethau yn cael eu gweld fel llwybr yr un mor werthfawr i yrfaoedd llwyddiannus?

Diolch. Dau gwestiwn pwysig iawn. Fe wnaf i ddechrau gyda phwysigrwydd codi ymwybyddiaeth o brentisiaethau fel opsiwn i bobl ifanc. I ddechrau, mae angen iddyn nhw ddeall mor gynnar â blwyddyn 7, 8 a 9 mewn ysgolion uwchradd mai nid y llwybrau traddodiadol yw'r unig ddewis iddyn nhw, a bod llwybr prentisiaethau yn un llwyddiannus ac effeithiol hefyd o ran datblygu eu sgiliau. Mae'n rhaid i ni hefyd godi'r ymwybyddiaeth ymhlith y cwmnïau bach a mawr hefyd, efallai sydd ddim wedi cymryd digon o gyfleoedd yn y sector yna.

O ran cyfrwng Cymraeg, dwi wedi dweud wrth Medr yn glir fy mod i eisiau gweld mwy o ddarpariaeth prentisiaethau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae e mor fach ar hyn o bryd. Mae'r Urdd, wrth gwrs, wedi gwneud gwaith gwych iawn yn y sector o ran datblygu prentisiaethau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg mewn meysydd amrywiol. Felly, mae'r model yna, mae'r galw yna, a beth sydd eisiau nawr yw'r Llywodraeth, fel dwi wedi dweud yn barod, i yrru'r cyfeiriad yna yn gwbl glir bod eisiau gweld mwy o hynny'n digwydd trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.

O ran yr ail gwestiwn, mae e'n rhywbeth agos iawn at fy nghalon ni. Dwi eisiau gweld yr un statws a gwerth yn cael eu rhoi i brentisiaethau ac i sgiliau galwedigaethol ag sydd i lwybrau mwy academaidd. Mae angen i ni gael gwared â'r snobyddiaeth yma a'n bod ni'n annog pobl ifanc i ystyried gyrfa neu lwybrau gyrfa trwy gyfrwng y cyrsiau galwedigaethol, a'n bod ni'n rhoi, fel maen nhw'n dweud yn y Saesneg, y parity of esteem yna i'r ddau. Mae hynny'n mynd i ddigwydd yn naturiol wrth i ni symud—ysgolion, hynny yw—i ddarparu y VCSEs yn 2027. Flwyddyn i nawr, mi fydd ysgolion yn darparu cyrsiau galwedigaethol ochr yn ochr â chyrsiau mwy academaidd. Felly, o hynny ymlaen, mi fydd pobl ifanc yn gweld bod yna lwybrau gwahanol iddyn nhw i'w dilyn, a dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n mynd i newid y sefyllfa yn llwyr o'r pwynt yna ymlaen.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch. Art.

It was just seeking a point of clarity. I don't know whether I myself was sure, on the last question that Sam asked you, whether we got a complete answer to it. What I'd like to pose is: as you're going to run the skills audit report, et cetera, and, post that, will more sectors be added to the current list of four?

You mean in the context of the apprenticeship levy.

Yes, correct.

Okay. So, the apprenticeship levy is run through the UK Government, so that's not a devolved issue, that particular levy, but we have our own support for apprenticeships. So, I don't know whether—. I've tried to explain—.

And that's the area I'm trying to zone in on. On our own, there are only four current sectors where companies can draw on. Post your skills audit, where you find there are actually other sectors—

There will be other sectors identified.

Will that list be added to?

That would be a discussion with the UK Government.

Yes. That is not a devolved matter, so we can certainly make representations to the UK Government, but it's not a devolved issue.

Okay.

Diolch. Catherine, please.

Thank you. My question really is about the provider, I guess, rather than the students coming through. So, recently, Art and I visited a defence company in my constituency of Ebbw Vale called PMB, and we discovered a fantastic apprentice there who is now going towards a degree in engineering, which is absolutely fantastic news. But one of the main issues that they had with taking on apprentices, which is why they weren't taking on any more, is because they had to pay such a high proportion of the pension value, and so they were having to offer apprentices more than they would for their normal workers. So, I think there are various barriers around that. Another example of that is plumbers that I met recently, and garages, where one of the colleges had completely removed those courses away from themselves, and so they weren't then able to take on good apprentices. So, my question really is: how are you really going to make this attractive to providers at ground level?

Thank you. Obviously, I'm not aware of those specific examples you've given, but we need to change the whole world of apprenticeships in Wales, and that is why this skills audit is so, so important. It gives us that evidence base, and we're bringing employers in, providers in, together in one space. Now, the last skills audit was done 14 years ago, so we've got a lot of catching up to do to understand where we are and where we need to be. And when I met representatives of employer associations a couple of weeks ago from all kinds of trades and all kinds of industry, I think I had about 18, 20 of them around the table, and they were very enthusiastic about supporting apprentices, and they were asking me about Government support for that. So, I'm keen over the next couple of months to develop that dialogue between employers, the Welsh Government and providers to see what the best fit is, because we need that engagement to be based on labour market intelligence, and that it fits in as well with our national and regional priorities.

It's probably just worth noting as well, as Medr work to develop the new frameworks, those barriers, and encouraging people and working closely with SMEs, is very much part of it also. There's a duty on Medr as well as part of that work to think about Welsh-medium provision in terms of apprenticeships. So, that work will be ongoing.

Yes, we've spoken quite a bit about that wraparound support for apprentices, and that is something Medr clearly understand and are working through at the moment.

Yes, because employers won't take them on if there are too many barriers, so we've got to iron those out.

Absolutely. Absolutely, yes.

Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at ein thema olaf, Aelodau, a hynny yw sgiliau. Nawr, rŷn ni wedi trafod sgiliau yn helaeth yn barod fel rhan o'r drafodaeth heddiw, ond fe wnaf i ddechrau gyda dau gwestiwn, a dwi'n gwybod bod yna sawl un arall sydd eisiau dod i mewn.

Un cwestiwn o ran eich newid cyfrifoldeb chi eto o ran hyfforddiant ar gyfer y blynyddoedd cynnar. So, allwch chi roi'r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf i ni am hyfforddiant gweithlu'r blynyddoedd cynnar er mwyn cyflawni amcanion gofal plant cyffredinol y Llywodraeth? Ac roeddwn i'n nodi, wedyn, o ran prentisiaethau, ac ynglŷn â'r drafodaeth ddwys wedyn o ran niferoedd ac ati, fod adeiladwaith wedi'i nodi fel maes twf ar gyfer colegau addysg bellach, ond roedd nifer y prentisiaethau lawr 48 y cant yn y sector adeiladu. Rŷn ni wedi clywed gan Sam ac Art mai un o'r pedwar yw adeiladwaith—y pedwar sydd yn gymwys ar gyfer yr ardoll. Felly, sut byddech chi'n annog colegau addysg bellach a darparwyr prentisiaethau i gydweithio i fynd i'r afael â'r galw hwn a chynyddu nifer y prentisiaethau, felly, sydd yn cael eu hymgymryd o ran y sector adeiladu?

Diolch. Fe wnaf i gymryd y cwestiwn cyntaf o gwmpas gofal plant. Dwi a'r Gweinidog sy'n gyfrifol am ofal plant wedi cael nifer o sgyrsiau. Mae darparu gofal plant ar draws Cymru gyfan yn flaenoriaeth glir i'r Llywodraeth hon. Mae hynny'n golygu, wrth gwrs, y bydd yn rhaid inni hyfforddi mwy o ymarferwyr yn y sector yna i ymateb i'r galw ac i ymateb i'r twf rŷn ni eisiau ei gyflyru ar draws Cymru. Y rheswm rŷn ni am gefnogi gofal plant, wrth gwrs, yw ei fod e'n mynd i ryddhau rhieni—mamau yn benodol, ond rhieni'n gyffredinol—i fynd yn ôl i'r gweithle neu fynd ar gyrsiau hyfforddiant. Felly, mae yna werth economaidd i hynny. Rŷn ni'n gwybod bod angen datblygu yn sylweddol y gweithlu gofal plant sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd. Mi fydd hynny yn cael ei fwydo mewn i'r awdit yma, ac mi fydd e'n sicr yn dod mas fel blaenoriaeth, buaswn i'n meddwl, ac yn rhywbeth wedyn y bydd y Llywodraeth yn gallu ymateb iddo fe o ran buddsoddiad.

Ar adeiladwaith—dwi wedi cyffwrdd ar hynny yn barod—mae e eto'n faes lle rŷn ni'n gweld bod prinder. Efallai bod yn rhaid inni ystyried hefyd pa mor anodd yw hi ar gwmnïau bach ar hyn o bryd. Gyda'r argyfwng costau byw, costau nwyddau yn codi, cost cynnal busnesau o ran taliadau ynni ac yswiriant cenedlaethol ac yn y blaen, mae hi yn anodd arnyn nhw i ymestyn y gyllideb i gefnogi prentisiaethau. Ond un o'r pethau rŷn ni'n ei drafod ar hyn o bryd—a'r sgwrs roeddwn i wedi ei chael ddoe gyda'r Gweinidog dros arloesedd—yw datblygu cynllun lle rŷn ni'n gallu, efallai, roi cymhellion i'r busnesau bach yma i gymryd prentisiaethau ymlaen. Ie, dyna ni. Dwi'n meddwl fy mod i wedi ateb y cwestiwn.

Diolch. Lynne.

I'm not sure if this is the right point for it or not, really, but I wanted to ask about targeted work experience. I'm a big fan of the programme. I think it's got a really important role to play in preventing young people being NEET, some of our most vulnerable young people. I have had some concerns, and I'm glad it sits with education now rather than under the economy. I was concerned about the reach of it and whether all the young people who could benefit from it are getting access to it. So, I wondered if there was any update on the coverage of the programme and if there are any plans to look at extending it.

I'll bring officials in specifically on that programme, but, as a point of principle, you're absolutely right—and I think I mentioned this earlier on—that work experience provides a softer approach to getting the vulnerable young people that we have into employment and into a world where discipline is important, where looking after themselves and each other is important, and the softer support through education and the development of self-esteem and self-confidence as well. All of that counts. So, I would want to see us absolutely continuing with that programme. I don't know whether Ruth wants to add anything specifically on that.

Five hundred placements will be delivered during this academic year, as you know, through Llandrillo and Cardiff and Vale, and there's been a successful ALN pilot where special schools have been engaged in terms of ensuring that those learners have access to tailored work experience as well. As you know, this is not just about giving young people a few days in the workplace. It's that real taste of what the world of work looks like and some of the barriers that they may be facing. Obviously, as part of the work of Careers Wales and as part of the budget setting, we'll be looking to make sure this is part of our NEET prevention as well.

Diolch. Lynne, any further questions on skills?

No, I've got another question on something else.

Okay, I'll come back to you, then. I think Lis—.

Oeddet ti eisiau dod i mewn ar sgiliau? Na. Hapus. Ocê, Lynne.

I probably should have asked this in the HE section, but I was worried about the time. I just wanted to ask about performing arts students. As you're aware, a lot of the courses aren't designated, they're a lot more expensive, but these are activities that are particularly appealing to some of our most deprived communities. There was an interim solution in place to cater for these young people, and I wondered what the plans were, going forward, to make sure that young people can do those courses.

I've had numerous letters from Members on the performing arts side of things in particular. What we've decided to do is to extend that interim period to allow the young people to go on those courses. Obviously, we'll have to take a longer term view, because we have to ensure that those courses that are not designated at the moment are quality assured and that they are regulated courses as well. But in order to avoid any disappointments, we have extended that provision for another year.

Okay, thank you.

That's right, we've done that. As you're aware, it was about a number of institutions that were not going through the designation processes. We've done a lot of work to get at those providers to get them on our system, because basically they need to be on our system in order to be able to attract student finance in order for those students then to be able to take up places. That's what's at the heart of it. We've done a lot of work. There was an information notice issued, I think this week, setting out where we are and explaining all of that. We're working really closely with ColegauCymru as well to make sure that their young people are aware of the sorts of courses that will give them the maximum funding, because some of this means that you've got two types of funding for students—one at the higher level, one at the lower level—so they're aware of all of that. And then, from next year onwards, from 2027-28, we will align more closely with what is happening in England, and it'll probably be easier to understand for prospective students. So, quite a lot of progress there.

Aelodau, mae yna ychydig o funudau ar ôl gyda ni. Oes yna unrhyw gwestiynau ar unrhyw fater arall? Mae ychydig o funudau ar ôl. Lis.

Dwi jest eisiau dweud am bwysigrwydd adult community learning. Fel rŷch chi'n gwybod, mae e'n rhan o beth rŷn ni'n ei wneud o ran y cynllun ataliol a phethau. Mae e mor bwysig. Mae'r cyfleoedd yna yn gallu trawsnewid bywydau. Roedd sawl un ohonon ni mewn noson wobrwyo y noson o'r blaen, yn gweld y math o waith sydd yn cael ei wneud. Dwi yn pryderu yn fawr iawn am faint y mae'r cyllid wedi cael ei dorri dros y blynyddoedd ar hynny. Beth yw'r sefyllfa ar hyn o bryd?

Fel rhywun sydd yn dod o gefndir addysg i oedolion, dwi yn gwybod yn iawn beth yw gwerth hyn a pha mor drawsnewidiol y mae addysg i oedolion yn gallu bod, o ran nid yn unig agor y drws i gyfleoedd newydd, ond mae e hefyd yn gwella hunan-werth y person, hunanhyder y person. Dwi, fel unrhyw un arall sydd wedi bod yn y sector addysg i oedolion, yn adnabod pobl sydd wedi troi eu bywyd o gwmpas oherwydd eu bod nhw wedi cael yr un cyfle yna i gael mynediad at addysg i oedolion.

Roeddwn i yn y noson Inspire!, ac mi oedd hi yn noson ysbrydoledig iawn lle roedden ni'n gweld pobl oedd wedi bod ar daith hir ac anodd i gyflawni pethau mawr. Pan rŷn ni'n meddwl am beth allai fod wedi digwydd i rai o'r bobl yna pe na baent wedi cael y cyfle a ddaeth iddyn nhw, mae e'n frawychus. Felly, cytuno'n llwyr: mae yna rôl amlwg i addysg i oedolion ac mae e'n rhywbeth sydd yn agos at fy nghalon i.

Dwi'n credu efallai hefyd y buasai'n werth sôn bod—. Dwi'n credu efallai, Lynne, eich bod chi wedi sôn gynnau yn y cyfarfod fod yna risg, efallai, er mwyn sicrhau bod yna fuddsoddiad mewn rhai ardaloedd, y bydd toriadau i addysg i oedolion, ac mae hynny'n peri pryder i fi hefyd, ac yn rhywbeth dŷn ni wedi crybwyll, efallai, jest yn fras iawn fel pwyllgor, yn enwedig am fod cymaint ohonom ni yn y gwobrau hynny yr wythnos diwethaf hefyd, ac wedi cael ein hysbrydoli, fel chi, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Iawn—. O, Sam. Ie, cer di.

[Inaudible.] And I still remember the speech well, Deputy Minister, from those awards, so da iawn.

Thank you.

We've mentioned a few issues here, obviously, around NEETs, throughout these two hours we've had together, and then the role of apprenticeships and skills. It strikes me we don't often talk much about employability as an issue, so you may have the qualifications, but then the employability skills are required. I'm just wondering from a Welsh Government perspective if you're clear where that responsibility sits, whether it's from the economy side, those employability skills, or does that sit in your brief. And for those 16 to 24-year-olds who get mentioned often as NEETs, how much of the issue we're seeing for that increase in NEETs is not necessarily skills or qualification, but it's an employability issue, and those specific skills required to fill the application form in, sit in an interview, turn up on time to work, those sort of things. Any thoughts?

Well, that's a really interesting question because it's a live discussion between me and the Minister for enterprise, because when you look at the acronym 'NEET', it's 'not in employment, education or training'. So, the education and training part of that sits with me and the employment part sits with my colleague Adam Price. So, we've had a discussion yesterday, which is the start of the process of understanding who takes the lead, who is responsible, and how we can work together, because this needs to work cross-portfolios—not only his portfolio, but, as I mentioned earlier on, it would involve health, social services, housing, transport, and all of the other issues that are barriers to young people becoming or being at risk of becoming NEET. So, it's a good question, and it's a live discussion.

Can I build on that slightly? I appreciate your response, Deputy Minister. Do you have a feel, or do your officials have a feel, as to how much of those in that NEET category—that it may be an employability thing rather than a skills thing? I'm wondering in terms of investment, because there is a heavy investment, and rightfully so, for those apprentices or those getting those qualifications, but it's an opportunity perhaps to, from a financial perspective, actually, get more bang for your buck, as it were, if it's investment in employability rather than in other areas. Is there a feel for that, as to where the weighting sits in terms of the reason for people being in a NEET situation being more of an employability skills issue or more of a qualifications thing? If you don't have the answer, I—.

What we are looking forward to is the Alan Milburn report, which is coming out, I think—. Is it next month?

I think so, yes.

So, that will provide that granular detail across the UK of where that balance is in terms of what we need to do to support those NEET young people, whether it is employability skills, whether it is to do with mental health, whether it is to do with disability access and all of those issues. That will become clearer once Milburn publishes that report, and I'm looking forward to reading and digesting that, because there will be a lot of learning for us in that report.

And, obviously, Medr, Welsh Government, will look at analysing how that translates into the Welsh context—whether it's different or the same. But it is something that we will be looking forward to responding to. And actually, on that point, I think we've got a meeting for me and the Minister for enterprise with Sir Alan Milburn; I think it's in a couple of weeks' time. So, I would want to take that opportunity to probe him further about exactly the point, Sam, you raised.

I think it's worth saying that, as officials, we're looking at the evidence across the different departments on what's feeding into this. But it's the full range at the moment—it's skills, employability, mental health, well-being; all of it seems to be playing a part.

And awareness of what Careers Wales's role is in making choices early on for young people.

I think this report is going to be such a milestone in terms of our understanding of the NEETs agenda. It will beg questions anew for us as a Government as to our approach and the best way of supporting these young people and whether the programmes we currently have are fit for purpose. There will be all kinds of difficult questions that will come from this report.

Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Yn anffodus, mae sawl cwestiwn yn dal i fod ar ôl gyda ni gan rai, ond mae'r amser wedi dod i ben. Rŷn ni wedi cael trafodaeth a sesiwn ddefnyddiol tu hwnt. Felly, diolch yn fawr i chi, a diolch i Ruth a Claire hefyd. Rŷn ni wedi sôn yr hoffem ni ddilyn lan gyda chi ar ddau beth yn benodol dwi wedi gwneud nodyn ohonyn nhw. Un yw Seren, o ran y dyddiadau, mwy o ran y cylch gorchwyl, mwy o fanylder, a hefyd, yn benodol, a fydd Rhydychen a Chaergrawnt yn rhan o'r panel ymgynghori hynny. Hefyd, mwy o wybodaeth o ran y rhaglen iechyd meddwl mewn addysg uwch; dwi'n credu bod hwnna hefyd yn un roedden ni eisiau dilyn lan arno fe. Oedd yna unrhyw beth arall, Aelodau, oeddech chi wedi meddwl y bydd angen i ni ddilyn lan gyda'r Dirprwy Weinidog yn benodol? Mae yna drafodaeth gyda ni wedyn hefyd fel rhan o weddill y cyfarfod; gallwn ni drafod os oes unrhyw bwnc arall. Ond fel eich bod chi'n disgwyl i'r rheini ddod oddi wrthym ni atoch chi yn y man. Diolch yn fawr i chi.

Diolch am y croeso a'r cwestiynau.

Aelodau, fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen nawr i eitem 3, papurau i'w nodi. Mae yna 12 papur gyda ni gerbron heddiw sydd o ddiddordeb i'r pwyllgor yma. Allaf i ofyn i ni nodi'r papurau hyn sydd wedi eu cynnwys yn y pecyn, y papurau sydd gyda chi heddiw? Ydy pawb yn gytûn i nodi'r papurau hynny? Grêt. Dim gwrthwynebiad.

Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at eitem 4. Rwy'n cynnig, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42.(ix), fod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. A yw pob Aelod yn fodlon â hyn? A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Na. Diolch yn fawr iawn.