Early Years, Children, Young People and Education Committee

Nicola Edwards, deputy director for equity in education.

Diolch yn fawr. A Louise.

Louise Brown, head of additional learning needs reform in the Welsh Government.

Diolch. Croeso mawr ichi i gyd y bore yma. Dwi'n ymwybodol, Weinidog, yr hoffech chi annerch y pwyllgor. Mae yna sawl pwnc a sawl cwestiwn gennym ni i ofyn i chi heddiw, felly dwi wedi bod yn eithaf llym o ran yr amser, mae gennyf ofn. Felly, dwi'n hapus i ganiatáu tri munud i chi, os yw hynny'n iawn. Diolch.

Mae hynny'n dderbyniol iawn, a diolch yn fawr am y cyfarwyddyd. Cyn cychwyn, hoffwn i hefyd nodi bod aelodau agos o'm teulu innau hefyd yn gweithio ym myd addysg.

Bore da ichi i gyd a diolch yn fawr am y gwahoddiad i ddod i siarad â chi. Mae'r pwyllgor yn amlwg yn gyfrifol am waith pwysig yn craffu ar waith Gweinidogion, a dwi wir yn edrych ymlaen at y cyfle i edrych ar y materion yma ac i chi graffu arnyn nhw, gan ein bod ni yn ymwybodol i gyd fod hyn o ddiddordeb cyffredin i chi fel Aelodau ac yn ehangach yng Nghymru hefyd.

Ers dod yn Weinidog ym mis Mai, dwi wedi ymweld ag ysgolion o Ynys Môn i Dorfaen a dwi'n parhau i fynd bob wythnos. Dwi wedi ymrwymo i fynd i weld ysgol bob wythnos achos dwi'n credu bod cadw'r cysylltiad hwnnw yn hollbwysig. A hefyd, mae e'n gyfle i weld y cyfraniad ehangach y tu hwnt i addysg mae ysgolion yn ei wneud, o gynlluniau fel Bwyd a Hwyl i'r gwaith caled maen nhw'n ei wneud o bryd i gilydd i sicrhau bod dysgwyr yn teimlo eu bod nhw'n perthyn yn eu cymunedau ac yn yr ysgol.

Rwy'n gwybod bod ein hymrwymiad ni i godi safonau'n ddibynnol, yn llwyr ddibynnol, ar weithlu ymroddedig, grymus ac angerddol, a dyna pam y bydd ymwneud â'r gweithlu mor bwysig wrth i ni fwrw ymlaen â'r gwaith hwn.

Without the workforce we obviously cannot get to where we would like to be, and it is important that their views are heard and acted upon. We know too that there are challenges with funding, with ALN and with school standards. Last month's Programme for International Student Assessment results made clear that there is plenty of work to do, but improving learner outcomes is a shared endeavour and reliant on the collective efforts of all key partners.

The new 'Foundational literacy and numeracy plan' sits at the heart of this and champions a very clear nought to 16 approach to raising standards—not all the work of schools, therefore; there are wider parties here who can influence and support. It does set out stronger national expectations, makes clear our commitment to systematic synthetic phonics and provides greater clarity around progression, transition and the early identification of need.

But the publication of the plan is not the end of the journey, it is the beginning of a renewed national effort to improve educational outcomes for all. The work ahead will require persistence, consistency and collaboration, and it will require us to use evidence well and to listen and respond to constructive challenge from people such as yourselves. Diolch yn fawr.

Weinidog, mae'r tri munud wedi dod i ben, mae gen i ofn.

Dwi'n barod i ateb y cwestiynau, popeth yn iawn.

Fe wnes i roi tamaid bach o ras fanna, ond dim problem. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am y cyflwyniad. Mae e'n gymorth i ni o ran rhoi cyd-destun, felly rwy'n gwerthfawrogi ichi wneud hynny. Mae gen i'r cwestiwn cyntaf. Hoffwn i sôn hefyd, rydyn ni wedi dyrannu'r cwestiynau sydd gyda ni mewn i themâu, ond yn amlwg mae'r themâu yn plethu i'w gilydd ar adegau. Felly, os ydych chi yn gweld ein bod ni efallai yn mynd o un thema i un arall yn ystwyth, dyna yw bwriad y drafodaeth heddiw, ein bod ni'n ystwyth iawn wrth eich cwestiynu chi.

Mae fy nghwestiwn cyntaf i yn ffocysu ar wella ysgolion, codi safonau a chyrhaeddiad disgyblion. Rydyn ni wedi clywed gennych chi o ran PISA, ac rydyn ni wedi clywed gan Estyn o ran eu hadroddiad blynyddol nhw. Hefyd, rydyn ni'n gwybod bod 27 allan o 173 o ysgolion uwchradd, sy'n cyfateb i 16 y cant, yn un o'r ddau gategori statudol o achosi pryder. Mae 15 ohonyn nhw o dan fesurau arbennig, ac mae angen gwelliant sylweddol ar 12 ohonyn nhw. Mae codi safonau ein hysgolion, dwi'n gwybod yn iawn, yn un o amcanion rhaglen lywodraethu y Llywodraeth newydd. Felly, pa sicrwydd sydd gennych chi fod gwasanaethau gwella ysgolion o dan arweiniad awdurdodau lleol a Dysgu yn gallu cefnogi'r amcan hwn? Pa fecanweithiau eraill fyddwch hefyd yn eu defnyddio i wella safonau yn ein hysgolion uwchradd yn benodol?

Diolch yn fawr iawn am y cwestiwn. Dwi'n credu ei fod yn un pwysig ac mae'n gyfle hefyd i atgyfnerthu'r neges ganolog rwyf wedi rhoi ers cychwyn yn y rôl hon, o bwysigrwydd pob un o'r gwasanaethau cefnogi ysgolion, ac Estyn hefyd. Rydyn ni wedi ymdrechu i sicrhau ein bod ni i gyd yn gytûn ar y cyfeiriad y mae angen mynd iddo fe. Er enghraifft, o ran y 'Cynllun llythrennedd a rhifedd sylfaenol', mi fydd yna fwrdd cyflawni y byddaf i'n ei gadeirio i sicrhau ein bod ni'n mynd i'r cyfeiriad cywir, ac mi fydd y partneriaid cymorth allweddol hynny yn rhan o'r bwrdd hwnnw. Byddwn ni felly yn cytuno ar y cyfeiriad, byddwn ni yn gweld y cynnydd tuag at y targedau, byddwn ni'n craffu ar y canlyniadau hynny, ac yn sicrhau bod yr elfennau yma wedi'u halinio ar bob achlysur. O ran ysgolion uwchradd, rwy'n gwybod o'r ymateb rwyf wedi ei gael ganddyn nhw yn barod fod y gwaith rydyn ni'n mynd i'w wneud ar y dangosydd ar gyfer blwyddyn 6 yn bwysig i sicrhau eu bod nhw a ni yn gallu symud yn hyderus i roi y cymorth sydd ei angen ar adeg briodol iddyn nhw hefyd.

I don't know, Georgina, whether you want to add to that.

Yes, just a couple of things on the wider Estyn framework and the work that they've been doing. The inspection regime started two years ago, so they're in the third year, and some of those schools hadn't been inspected since pre-COVID, so I think some of it reflects some of the issues that have been over the last period. There's been quite a lot of work done around helping schools to help each other through peer support and trying to build a collaborative model much more widely across the school sector. We're hopeful that some of that will really help some of those schools to improve as well in the wider sense.

Diolch. Art, fe wnaf i ddod atat ti, plis.

Bore da, Minister. What I want to go into in slightly more depth is to understand what your future planning is going to be around the PISA results and what you said earlier about your plan for literacy and numeracy going forward. The latest cycle in the Estyn report states it's the lowest it's been in Wales since first participation in 2006. Part of their statement is quite damning, that ongoing weaknesses in literacy, teaching quality and leadership, particularly in secondary schools, are limiting the progressive ability of our learners. What I'd like to know is: what your plan is, when the plan is due to take action, and when we're going to start to see the results.

Thank you. I think what's important and what is a change is the fact that we will have a specific national indicator around literacy and numeracy that will give confidence, or give data and information to us, to ensure that we are going in the right direction in terms of literacy and numeracy. We can use more effectively the data that actually already exists in the system to do this. As when I gave my statement to the Senedd a couple of weeks ago, I am confident and I am committed to showing, during this Senedd term, that we are making progress against that national indicator.

At the same time, it's important that we understand the literacy and numeracy skills of learners as they enter our school system, and that's why identifying a credible, well-informed baseline, which is the work we are doing now, will be important and why, too, I'm working very closely with the Deputy First Minister on the childcare offer and the support for learners, even before they enter the school system, to understand the support they need, and also, then, the progress that they are making.

The third thing is that we will determine, at the level of qualifications, the progress we want to see at that point. So, at every stage and every transition, particularly, we'll have data against which we can measure our progress. And also, the second very important part of that will be that that will enable us to target support at the workforce effectively, which is why Dysgu, which is our professional learning arm, will be part of the delivery board, and aligning all of these things. Because you need the measures, you need to demonstrate progress, but you also need the support to make sure that this is something that the system can respond to.

Diolch.

Minister, could I just add to a point—

Yes, of course.

—that you made previously around the consistency across schools? As you've mentioned previously, there are some excellent schools in Wales that are doing really, really well, but one of the things that you've talked about is how you make sure that there is a consistently high quality of support within schools. The 'Foundational literacy and numeracy plan' really talks about what schools will receive to improve in a consistent way across all of them, so that the new expectations of learning, the baseline assessment, the year 6 indicator, the national professional learning offer, all of that starts to create a consistent, coherent national model, for which all schools will have exactly the same offer across Wales.

Thank you very much. Lynne Neagle, please.

Good morning. I wanted to ask about PISA. I was incredibly disappointed by the PISA results, and obviously I'm well aware of the amount of effort that went into encouraging engagement in PISA in this round, and I don't subscribe to what some people have said, which is, 'Oh, it's just one indicator.' I think the Government was committed to PISA, and therefore we have to take the results seriously.

What I specifically wanted to ask about is that, on the day of the PISA release, Andreas Schleicher, who is head of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development for education, said that

'England had pursued "coherent and consistent policies in education" which were "conducive to producing good learning outcomes".

'"That's not what we've seen in countries like Scotland or Wales to that extent"'.

Now, I'm very supportive of the relationship with the OECD, but I was very surprised to see that in such stark terms, given how closely the OECD has worked with the Welsh Government. They came and did a two-day learning event with us when I was Minister. So, what I wanted to ask is: what is your response to what Andreas has said? Have you had any further discussions with the OECD about those comments? Has there been feedback that maybe the Senedd isn't aware of from the OECD that we need to be picking up on? Because he is clearly saying there that we aren't getting it right.

Thank you. I agreed with one element of his assessment, certainly, in that I think a renewed, long-term, sustained focus on literacy and numeracy will be helpful in our system, and I would expect that to influence the scores in the PISA results in 2030.

I have engaged with the OECD. There are two things that are important, I think, in terms of PISA. It does give you a level, as you will know, of granular detail, which will be helpful in informing our work, particularly in relation to learners who require additional stretch. Fitting that into our literacy and numeracy plan will be important, because there is something important there that they have identified. In my engagement, post PISA, with the OECD, they have also been clear that, for example, they wouldn't advise beginning again with curriculum reform, and that it is the sustained focus that they feel would be helpful.

There is also something more broadly interesting happening with PISA. While we have focused on ourselves, legitimately and perfectly properly, given that this is not where we want to be, and we need to move in a much more favourable direction for the future, all PISA results have gone down, all over the world. So, there is something interesting going on with education systems everywhere. The early indications from the OECD are around the use of screens, for example. So, there is a broader conversation to be had here about what's happening in education across the world, while we make good use of what the OECD can tell us in terms of granular detail. But ripping it up and starting again was not part of the advice I've had from them.

Lynne, ydych chi'n hapus gyda'r ymateb? Mi wnawn ni symud ymlaen, os felly. Oes yna unrhyw un arall eisiau dod i mewn ar y thema yma? Achos dwi eisiau symud ymlaen i'r thema nesaf, sef y Cwricwlwm i Gymru a chymwysterau. Mae gen i Sam lawr ar gyfer y thema yma. Wyt ti'n barod, Sam, i ddod mewn ar hwn gyda dy gwestiwn, plis?

Thanks, Chair. Good morning, Cabinet Minister. Thanks for being with us today. I'm sure it's an absolute pleasure.

It is.

Absolutely. I noted the shift in number of pupils picking up religion, values and ethics as a GCSE in the last few years. In 2020, around 15,000 pupils were taking religious education or RVE as a GCSE. That has nearly halved now—it's around 8,000 pupils at GCSE level. Does that concern you at all, and do you think there's any particular reason why that might be the case?

I don't know whether anybody else has more detailed information on this. It's not something that I was aware of in that level of detail, but I'm very happy to look at it. I suspect that there are a lot of reasons why that might be the case, and speculating on them probably wouldn't be helpful, unless somebody else has got more information on it.

The qualification [correction: subject] is, of course, a mandatory part of the curriculum. It is about something very important, which is building children's awareness and understanding of different beliefs and engaging critically with these. They are required to be—which, in our increasingly complex society, I think, is really important—objective, critical and pluralistic. But it does also recognise, and the curriculum must recognise, for example, that the religious traditions of Wales are, in the main, Christian. So, there are an awful lot of elements to this qualification that are important in building the knowledge and understanding of pupils in our schools. I will be interested in looking in more detail at the reasons.

Perhaps if I may, Chair, just expand on a few points there. I think you're right around the importance of the subject in terms of the ever-polarising world we have. I think there's an opportunity in schools to support children to understand other sides of opinion, other beliefs, and to perhaps be more empathetic towards those. I think there's a responsibility on Government to grasp the nettle on that issue as well. This is just one indicator; I appreciate that RVE can be discussed and considered elsewhere. But I think it is an important indicator—whether children are choosing to pursue this as a qualification or not. You'll be aware, of course, that the short course GCSE no longer exists here in Wales. I think that is part of the reason why these numbers aren't where they could or should be. You said you perhaps aren't all over the detail of this specific part right now, and that's absolutely acceptable, but I wonder if it's something you're happy to take away and perhaps come back with in terms of further consideration.

Yes, absolutely.

Sam, I was just going to suggest that very thing: that we request further information from the Minister following today, if you're content with that.

May I just ask on this particular point again? I think part of the reason also is the ability to recruit teachers in RE. You'll be aware, of course, that places like Cardiff University have rolled back on some of their RE or Theology teacher-training courses as well, so I guess there's a broader picture, with your Deputy Minister, to consider here as well, which I think you accept as well.

Yes, absolutely. I'm happy to look into that in more detail and come back to you. As you indicate, there's probably a multiplicity of reasons why this is now the case. But diolch, it's an interesting thing to look into.

Diolch, Sam. Mair Rowlands.

O ran y Cwricwlwm i Gymru, mae bellach wedi bod ar waith ers sawl blwyddyn. Beth ydy'r dystiolaeth gryfaf sydd gan y Llywodraeth ei fod yn gwella profiadau a deilliannau dysgwyr? A ydych chi'n hyderus bod ysgolion yn cael digon o amser a chymorth i weithredu'r cwricwlwm yn iawn hefyd, ac ymdopi efo'r heriau a phwysau eraill sydd gan staff yn ein hysgolion?

Diolch yn fawr. Mae yna waith yn digwydd er mwyn gwerthuso'r cwricwlwm. Byddwn ni, rwy'n credu, yn ystod cyfnod y Senedd yma, yn cael mwy o fanylion i'w trafod ynglŷn â hynny. Ond un o'r pethau sydd yn amlwg yw bod gofyn am fwy o eglurder a chefnogaeth i'r gweithlu i weithredu'r cwricwlwm yn llawn. Dyna pam rydym ni wedi ymrwymo i adolygiad. Rwy'n gweithio ar hyn o bryd ar siâp hwnnw ac yn gwahodd arbenigwyr i fod yn rhan o'r gwaith hwnnw dros y cyfnod nesaf. Yn 2022, dwi'n credu, roedd e yn ei lawnder yn ein hysgolion ni, felly mae tipyn o waith i'w wneud i edrych yn fwy manwl ar ei effaith yn yr ysgolion.

O ran y baich gwaith y mae pobl yn cysylltu gydag e, byddwn i'n dadlau mai dyna beth fydd rhan o ffocws yr adolygiad hwn, achos mae ansicrwydd ynglŷn â'r gofynion yn rhywbeth sydd yn gallu ychwanegu'n sylweddol at faich gwaith a phoen meddwl o ran pobl yn teimlo a ydyn nhw'n gweithredu'n effeithiol ac yn gwneud y peth a ddylen nhw. Felly, rwy'n mynd i fynd ati'n fwriadus i sicrhau bod y rheini'n elfennau penodol yn yr adolygiad yma, fel ein bod ni'n gallu rhoi'r sicrwydd yna. Ac, o roi'r sicrwydd hwnnw, rŷn ni wedyn yn gallu alinio’r gefnogaeth i'r gweithlu er mwyn gweithredu'r cwricwlwm. Achos, yn ei hanfod, rwy'n credu bod yr egwyddorion sydd yn sail i'r cwricwlwm o ran y math o ddysgwyr ŷn ni'n moyn eu creu yng Nghymru yn bethau y gallwn ni i gyd eu cefnogi ac sydd, yn eu hunain, yn rhinweddol, ond mae gwaith i'w wneud i'w weithredu e'n haws ac yn gliriach i'r gweithlu ac i randdeiliaid ehangach hefyd. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. Art, roedd gen ti gwestiwn ar y cwricwlwm fan hyn.

[Inaudible.]

Ocê, gwych. Oes unrhyw gwestiynau pellach ar y cwricwlwm gan unrhyw un ar hyn o bryd? Ie, Catherine. Diolch.

Good morning. I have asked in the Chamber about this, and this covers the numeracy and literacy strategy and the Curriculum for Wales. As you've already said, there is an element of overworking of teachers at the moment with regard to the Curriculum for Wales. I just wondered how you're going to introduce this numeracy and literacy strategy. I've had a look at your document this morning, 'Principles for teaching language and literacy in Wales'—it's quite a lengthy document. So, how are you going to expect teachers to keep up with the Curriculum for Wales workload and implement this, which is quite lengthy as well?

I'm just worried about that work balance. I know you've addressed a little bit of it, but how are you going to integrate the two so that teachers going forward—? We've got teachers coming out—. In terms of the retention of student teachers, they're dropping out because they're not able to cope with the Curriculum for Wales and now these strategies on top of that. I'm just concerned about how that is going to be managed for teachers. And our young teachers, who sometimes face a lack of support because the other members staff in their environment and settings are struggling with their own workload, so they are not able to support—. So, how are you planning to do that?

Thank you. The workload in schools is much more complex than the Curriculum for Wales, as you will know. There are lots of elements—and they are essentially things that impact society more broadly, but find expression in schools—that are causing significant concern around workloads that I have also determined to look at in more practical ways—how do we understand this better, and how do we tackle it. Because I appreciate your point as well that it has a direct impact, particularly on retention of teachers.

In terms of the foundational plan, I don't see that as in conflict with the Curriculum for Wales. It's the same point that I made earlier, I think—that the clarity around the expectations will—. Because later—. Is it this month? Yes. Or later this term, just to be safe, the consultation on the detail of what those expectations look like will be published. And I feel, in my conversations with teachers so far, that having that level of clarity will be actively helpful rather than otherwise. Having that knowledge of the detailed expectations, enabling us to then ask Dysgu and Adnodd, and other partners that support the workforce, to align what they do to the expectations of that, should get us to a better place, rather than a more complex one.

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen nawr at y thema nesaf. Mae'r pynciau yma i gyd yn bwysig, ond dwi'n gwybod bod yna drafodaeth helaeth wedi bod ynglŷn ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, Weinidog. Hoffwn i ddod at Lynne Neagle, os gwelwch yn dda.

Thank you. I've got a few questions about ALN. The committee received a letter in response to our request about any revisions to the code of practice. I just wanted to clarify where we are with the work around what is generally available. I know how hard ALN officials work, and I know that this is a complex piece of work and will take time. But I just wanted to understand the sequencing. The guidance—which I signed off, actually—which was released in the spring is very good. But is it the plan to develop generally available guidance and then to look at laying a new code of practice on ALN?

Thank you for the question. I agree with you: the ALN officials that I'm going to bring in in a moment have been tremendously hard-working. I am still looking at that element, but also trying to work out how do we get to a point where we have a clearer understanding of the provision made generally available in our system—because, obviously, that's in the Act—and how do we get to a place where that is defined in a way that is helpful and well understood. So, that's the work I'm focusing on at the moment. The aim of it is to improve support for learners and the long-term sustainability of the system.

I'm sure Louise would want to add something to this, but revising the code would, as you know, need a statutory consultation. That's still very much a possibility and on the table, as it were. But I want to make that work now around that understanding in the system of provision generally available, and also to monitor the use of the toolkit, because the toolkit that I think you also introduced is very helpful in terms of parents and carers. Louise, do you want to add to that?

Yes, certainly. You've discussed some of this at length, Cabinet Minister. The Cabinet Minister really wants us to take a much more systematic and practical approach to this, to be much clearer on what we expect from the education system as a whole, and to think about whether we might be able to establish clearer expectations on what high-quality, consistent support looks like, to almost act as a benchmark from which we can improve provision and improve the support that's generally available in schools, and building on the existing support that's already there. That's work that we're discussing at the moment. As the Cabinet Minister said, we need to think about whether that has implications on the code. But, ultimately, it's about, right now, trying to improve support in schools and being really clear about what we expect. So, that's the work that we're working through and we can bring updates back to the committee.

Thank you. You mentioned the parent toolkit. There was a report that was received before the election from Gareth Morgans on advocacy, and you'll be aware that one of the big problems with the ALN system is that it is too often a battle for families. I think advocacy is really important, and I think there was an expectation, as part of the work arising from the legislative review, that work would be taken forward on the back of Gareth Morgans's work to develop some sort of independent national provision of advocacy. So, where are we on that?

Louise, are you happy to answer that?

I can. So, the Cabinet Minister is meeting Gareth Morgans, actually, later this month to discuss the review findings, and then we can work through publication and next steps. But, obviously, this is a really, really important area, to support that early support for families, early resolution of disputes, and to stop ALN challenges escalating, really, for children and families.

What we started discussing is working with local authorities as, obviously, they're responsible for delivering advocacy, and the funding arrangements also sit with local authorities. So, to start to have those conversations with local authorities in the first instance, to think about whether we can strengthen support services at that local level, and discuss whether national standards can support that consistency, then, of the local service—. So, I think some of those conversations are still in progress. As I say, we're meeting Gareth Morgans later this month. But it's certainly still a key priority to make sure that that support is there for families early and when they need it, really.

Okay. I'm sure the committee would want an update on that work, because independence is the key issue that families worry about and they don't always have confidence in the local authority commissioned services. I wanted to—

Lynne, before you just carry on, can I just remind people—sorry, I should have said this earlier—that you don't need to manually put your mic on? It will come on automatically. Sorry, I should have mentioned that at the top of the meeting. Apologies. Lynne.

I wanted to ask about mandatory training for school staff. I know we don't like the word 'mandatory', but there is a need to upskill all school staff if we're going to move towards a genuinely inclusive education system. Is that still a priority for Dysgu?

Yes.

Okay, great. Thank you.

And, then, my final question is on supporting learners with healthcare needs, which we had a discussion about in the Chamber. I can't overemphasise how serious this is, with school support staff being asked to perform really complex medical procedures. Obviously, I'm aware it's complex, the piece of work to take this forward. But I wanted to ask how assured you are that we haven't got support staff now in schools that are undertaking things like working on catheters, MIC-KEY lines et cetera. But also, what is the mechanism for reaching a firm agreement with health on this? Because the problem was usually with engagement with health rather than education. There was a group in place, chaired by your director and the chief nursing officer. Is that still the mechanism? And when can we expect that work to be concluded so that there is absolute clarity for schools?

I'm very happy just to talk about the governance of it, internally, and relationships with health, and Louise can talk a little bit about the engagement events that are happening at the moment with partners, externally. So, I continue to co-chair the internal oversight board with the chief nursing officer. I'm really pleased with how that work is progressing and the enthusiasm and support from everyone, including people who are involved in regional partnership boards and more externally focused, to really make a difference and to think really carefully about, as the consultation and the shared guidance progresses, how we make sure it really has an impact within schools. Everyone absolutely recognises the challenges, particularly for teaching assistants, around this and the relative qualifications and expertise necessary to support learners in the best way possible. So, I can absolutely reassure you that we continue to work very hard on it, internally.

And timescales.

Early next year for the guidance [correction: guidance consultation].

And are we confident the support staff aren't currently being asked to perform tasks they're not trained for?

I maybe want to hand over to Louise for this because there's an external engagement event happening this week with local authorities as well, who are really engaged to talk about their experiences and what's happening on the ground.

So, there's a series of engagements happening around developing the guidance, and that process is really going into the depth of roles and responsibilities. We've already held, I think, two events in north Wales and somewhere else last week, and we've got two more coming up. And those are a chance for both sectors, professionals in both sectors, to come together and really talk about these really knotty issues, to get into the depths of how we resolve this together. So, those conversations have been really, really useful, and they're all feeding into the guidance, which will really, clearly, be able to outline what those roles and responsibilities look like and to address concerns such as that. So, I think we're moving to a really positive place with these discussions and there's a first draft of the guidance that is being explored through [correction: alongisde] these sessions. I think it's a really important piece of work and it's progressing well.

I think it's an opportunity as well to reiterate the commitment to work on some of these issues across Government. I've already had a few meetings now with the health Minister and the Deputy Minister for Public and Preventative Health, in particular, to look at and, I think, in relation to the nought-to-16 focus that we've got as well, that we do consider the needs of all our learners in a holistic way that obviously involves significant input from health in terms of expertise and services and trying to make that a more easily navigable space for families and for the education workforce as well, and to make those relationships less complex than they appear to be at the moment.

Thank you.

Diolch, Weinidog. Mae dau gwestiwn gen i o ran ADY. Byddwch chi'n ymwybodol bod gostyngiad o 57 y cant wedi bod yn nifer y disgyblion a nodwyd fel rhai ag anghenion addysgu ychwanegol dros y pum mlynedd ers cyflwyno'r system newydd, wrth gwrs. Er bod nifer o resymau hysbys dros y gostyngiad hwn, mae'n digwydd ar adeg pan mae ysgolion, awdurdodau lleol a rhanddeiliaid yn nodi bod mwy o ddisgyblion yn cyflwyno anghenion mwy difrifol. Felly, sut mae anghenion disgyblion nad ydynt bellach yn cael eu hystyried yn bodloni'r trothwy cyfreithiol ar gyfer ADY yn cael eu diwallu y tu allan i'r system ADY, ac, yn wir, a ydynt yn cael eu diwallu mewn gwirionedd? Mae'n clymu mewn gyda chwestiwn Lynne o ran adolygu'r cod, efallai, hefyd. Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. A dwi'n credu ei fod e hefyd yn berthnasol i'r sgwrs gawson ni'n gynt ynglŷn â'r system gynhwysol, achos bwriad a nod y system yw ein bod ni mewn sefyllfa i allu diwallu anghenion ystod eang o ddysgwyr, ac mae rhan o'r gwaith o adnabod beth sydd yn ddisgwyliedig yn mynd i fod yn bwysig yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Ond ar yr un pryd, wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid i hwnna alinio gyda'r gefnogaeth rŷn ni'n rhoi i'r gweithlu a hefyd yn adeiladu dealltwriaeth ehangach ymysg rhieni ac eraill ynglŷn â chefnogaeth bwrpasol, briodol yn yr ysgol. Dwi ddim yn gwybod, efallai y bydd Nic yn moyn ychwanegu rhywbeth ar hwn ynglŷn â'r system gynhwysol. Nic.

The inclusive system?

Yes.

So, it's a piece of work that we've been working through for quite some time, really, thinking about what, practically, our classrooms look like, how that support works for a range of children with different needs. It's important also to think about the interdependencies between some of those needs and the cross-overs. You can have a child with dyslexia, but they may have other things going on in their life that mean that their needs are more complicated. So, they might have issues at home in terms of family finances or there might be issues around mental health and anxiety that also play into their ability to engage with their lessons.

So, what we really want to do is get to a point—. And I think it picks up on the point somebody else was making earlier about the pressures in the classroom and the workload of teachers. Teachers can't fix everything that's happening in society. Everything in society might pitch up in a school at some point in time because we all live in a very interconnected way now and everything gets seen much more readily, but teachers need to be able to know where to go to get that support. We need the appropriate support staff in the right place—that's not just about teaching assistants, which I think a lot of people think we mean when we say 'support staff'. It's also about school counsellors, which I know that previous committees have talked about in a lot of depth, it's also about people who can support with additional learning needs, healthcare needs and also family engagement officers and the important pastoral role they can play. So, we're trying to build a system that has all of these support points in place, that schools know where they are, they can call on them as they need them and they can meet the needs of that child as that child presents in that classroom on that day.

It does require some schools to work in a slightly different way to maybe the way they have done in the past. It requires teachers to have slightly different skill sets so that they know where to go to get that help and support. But it is really important to us that we do that and that we can meet and address those needs before they get to a point where you need to put in quite severe interventions to make sure that that child is getting what they need.

Diolch yn fawr. Mae'r ail gwestiwn sydd gen i ar ADY yn ffocysu ar ADY cyfrwng Cymraeg. So, yng nghynllun 100 diwrnod Plaid Cymru, roedd ymrwymiad i wella hygyrchedd i addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, gan ddechrau gydag asesiad o ddarpariaeth ADY yn y Gymraeg. Yn ogystal, cafwyd adolygiad pum mlynedd o ddichonolrwydd darpariaeth ADY yn y Gymraeg yn ddiweddar, fel yr oedd yn ofynnol o dan y Ddeddf. Sut bydd yr asesiad a nodwyd yn y cynllun 100 diwrnod yn cyd-fynd â'r adroddiad a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Awst ac yn adeiladu ar hynny? Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. Dwi nawr ddim yn gallu ffeindio fy manylion ynglŷn â hyn.

I'll come in.

Yes.

So, the review that was published in August fulfils the quinquennial review, ultimately, and provides us with that really important picture of areas of progress and areas where we need to improve. So, really, it establishes that baseline for improvement over time. That work had been under way in the previous Government and came forward at the start of this Government. So, those two things certainly interact, and they deliver on the commitments of the quinquennial review.

Ocê. Unrhyw beth i'w ychwanegu, Weinidog, gennych chi?

Wel, o safbwynt edrych ar y systemau anghenion dysgu ychwanegol yn eu hehangder, achos mae yna ddau beth sydd yn arbennig o bwysig i ni ffocysu arnyn nhw ar hyn o bryd—. Un yw'r pwysau cyfredol ar adnoddau yn ein hysgolion ni, ond hefyd sut ydym ni'n cyrraedd pwynt lle mae'r system anghenion dysgu ychwanegol yn fwy cynaliadwy yn y tymor canol a'r tymor hwy. Yng nghyd-destun y gwaith manwl hwnnw, o ran sut ydym ni'n gweithio tuag at gyrraedd y pwynt hwnnw, bydd darpariaeth ADY cyfrwng Cymraeg yn allweddol i'r gwaith ehangach hwnnw, achos os nad ydym ni'n gallu diwallu'r anghenion hynny, mae e'n cael effaith ar flaenoriaethau llywodraethol a blaenoriaethau ehangach o ran y Gymraeg sydd gyda ni hefyd. So, gallaf sicrhau y pwyllgor fod y gofynion hynny, a diwallu'r anghenion o ran y gweithlu yn benodol, yn mynd i fod yn ystyriaeth ganolog o sicrhau ein bod ni'n cyrraedd man mwy dibynadwy ac yn cynnig y dilyniant yna i ddysgwyr, sydd ddim bob amser yna ar hyn o bryd.

Diolch, Weinidog. Cyn i fi ddod at Art, Catherine, roeddwn i jest eisiau tsiecio gyda ti, oeddet ti eisiau dod i mewn ar ADY—anghenion dysgu ychwanegol?

No, I'm okay on that.

Okay. Art. Diolch.

Cabinet Minister, we're all aware that, currently, ALN is a system that is massively under strain, whether that's in terms of funding or the correct provisioning. I'm happy to hear some of the answers you've been giving today, that we are trying to plan to get it in the correct direction. One of the issues I'd like to know is, now we've already been through the supplementary budget, where we fully understood the house did not feel enough was being given, has that issue been revisited? In the new budget, are you going to fund it correctly?

This is a priority for us. I think we have reiterated, on a number of occasions, that securing funding for ALN is a significant priority for us, and we are continuing discussions with all parties to ensure that we are able to address some of those needs.

And, Art, as a reminder, we will be bringing the Minister back, when we do have the draft budget, for further scrutiny on that in particular.

I'll be very keen to see it.

Diolch. Ocê. Mair, draw atat ti, plis.

Diolch. Mae'r cwestiwn sydd gen i o ran hawliau anghenion dysgu ychwanegol yn y ddarpariaeth gofal plant. Efallai fod yna ychydig o ddiffyg eglurder ynghylch hawliau ADY o fewn y ddarpariaeth gofal plant am ddim. A fuasech chi'n gallu cadarnhau: ydy plentyn sy'n cael darpariaeth dysgu ychwanegol yn ystod yr elfen addysg feithrin—y 10 awr yna—yn cael yr un lefel o gymorth yn ystod yr oriau gofal plant sy'n cael eu hariannu? Ond dwi'n deall bod hwnna hefyd yn mynd dros bortffolio Gweinidog arall hefyd.

Ydy, ac mae eisiau inni weithio gyda'n gilydd, yn amlwg, ar hwnna. Ni ddylai fod yna wahaniaeth, er enghraifft, yn yr oriau mae dysgwr sydd ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol yn cael o ran darpariaeth gofal plant, ond mi fydd yna drafodaeth bellach wedyn ynglŷn â'r gofynion ADY penodol yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Louise, a ydych chi'n moyn ychwanegu rhywbeth. Ond mae e, yn amlwg, yn ffocws byw i ni, sicrhau bod y—. Achos mae e'n mynd nôl at y cwestiwn ynglŷn â dilyniant y gefnogaeth, mewn gwirionedd, onid yw e, sicrhau bod dysgwyr yn gallu cael yr hyn sydd ei angen arnyn nhw yng nghyd-destun gofal plant, a chyn ysgol, yn ogystal ag yn yr ysgol.

Thank you. We have a professional adviser working within ALN and working with the team on the childcare offer to make sure that these two things do clearly align. She's actually been out with early years officers this week, working through the ins and outs of how we make sure that we've got a really clear childcare offer, but we're really clear how local authorities are supporting very young children to access the support around ALN. So, as the Cabinet Minister said, it's a live piece of work, and making sure that there's a really clear offer for families is the priority, really. Because I think it has been difficult to navigate, and with this new clear offer we need to make sure that it's equally transparent for learners with ALN.

Diolch yn fawr. Oes yna unrhyw gwestiynau pellach ar ADY, anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, gan unrhyw un? Os na, fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen felly at y Gymraeg mewn addysg. Beca, fe wnaf i ddod atat ti, plis, gyda'r cwestiwn cyntaf.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Gadeirydd. Mi fyddwch chi, wrth gwrs, yn gyfarwydd efo llwyddiant polisi iaith addysg Cyngor Gwynedd, polisi sydd wedi cael ei gryfhau ym mhellach yn ddiweddar, sy'n sicrhau bod pob un plentyn yn cael mynediad i addysg Gymraeg a dwyieithog yn gwbl ddiwahân. Wrth i chi weithio ar fesurau i dyfu nifer y plant sy'n derbyn addysg Gymraeg drwy Gymru, i ba raddau fyddwch chi'n ystyried ac yn dysgu o lwyddiant polisi iaith Gwynedd? Achos, fel plentyn i rieni a symudodd yma o Loegr, mae'n gwbl bosib na fyddwn i'n medru'r Gymraeg o gwbl oni bai bod fy rhieni i wedi symud i Wynedd, ble mae pob un plentyn yn cael mynediad hollol gyfartal i gaffael y Gymraeg.

Diolch yn fawr. Dwi'n credu gallaf i ymrwymo'n hapus iawn i ddysgu o lwyddiant awdurdodau lleol ar draws Cymru o safbwynt rhoi mynediad i addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, sydd yn ganolog wrth gwrs i'r gwaith rŷn ni'n ei wneud nawr i ymgynghori arno fe yn fuan o ran y fframwaith sydd yn rhan o Ddeddf y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru) 2025. Beth fydd yn—. Mae angen i ni ddatblygu cyfleoedd i gyrraedd at addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, a hefyd mae'n rhaid i ni sicrhau, ba bynnag ysgol mae ein pobl ifanc ni'n mynd iddi, eu bod nhw'n gallu gadael yr ysgol honno yn gallu defnyddio'r Gymraeg yn hyderus. Felly, pan fyddwn ni'n ymgynghori yn nes ymlaen yn y tymor hwn ar yr elfennau yma, bydd hwnna yn cynnwys manylion o siẁd rŷn ni'n cyrraedd y nodau yma, yn adeiladu ar yr hyn mae nifer o awdurdodau lleol—neu awdurdodau lleol ar draws Cymru—wedi bod yn ei wneud yn barod. Un o'r pethau rŷn ni wedi'i wneud ar frys dros yr haf yw edrych ar y cynlluniau strategol o safbwynt addysg Gymraeg i bob un o'r awdurdodau rheini. Rŷn ni'n dadansoddi'r rheini ar hyn o bryd ac yn cael sgyrsiau pellach gyda'r awdurdodau lleol i edrych ar siẁd rŷn ni'n cyrraedd o'r man lle rŷn ni nawr i wireddu'r dyheadau sydd yn y Ddeddf ac yn yr ymgynghoriad, fydd yn dod yn fuan iawn.

Weinidog, roedd cwestiwn gen i ar y cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg a'r cynlluniau gweithredu, felly. Rŷch chi'n sôn bod yr adolygiad cyflym yna wedi'i gwblhau ac rŷch chi wedi sôn eich bod chi nawr yn mynd ati i fynd nôl at yr awdurdodau. Oes modd i chi roi rhyw fath o trailer i ni o ba fath o ganfyddiadau a gawsoch chi trwy'r adolygiad hynny?

Rhyw fymryn, ond dwi'n osgoi rhannu gormod, gan na fyddai e'n gwbl deg gan ein bod ni ond wedi cael sgyrsiau gyda hanner yr awdurdodau lleol hyd yn hyn. Ond mae yna dwf, er enghraifft, mewn darpariaethau gofal plant cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae yna dwf yn nysgwyr blwyddyn 1 mewn addysg Gymraeg, ac mae buddsoddiad amlwg hefyd o ran gwariant ar ddatblygu ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. So, mae yna elfennau sydd wedi dod trwodd yn barod, ond byddai hi'n gynamserol i fi fynd i fanylder, gan ein bod ni yn parhau â'r gwaith hwnnw, a byddai'r darlun cyflawn yn fwy defnyddiol.

Felly, oes modd i ni ofyn am lythyr a diweddariad gennych chi yn y man pan fydd y canfyddiadau yna'n gliriach, a'ch bod chi wedi siarad gyda'r awdurdodau lleol i gyd?

Gallwn.

Diolch yn fawr. Ocê, Mair, fe wnaf ddod atat ti.

Diolch. Cwestiwn ynglŷn â—. Roedd yn gadarnhaol iawn clywed am y gwaith yna sy'n digwydd efo awdurdodau lleol. Byddai gen i ddiddordeb gwybod mwy o ran pryd fydd amserlen weithredu glir sy'n gosod llwybr tuag at darged 2050 a gweithredu Deddf y Gymraeg ac Addysg (Cymru) 2025 yn cael ei chyhoeddi. Yn amlwg, mae'r Llywodraeth bresennol wedi cynyddu'r targed hefyd, dwi'n meddwl, i 50 y cant o beth oedd o gan y Llywodraeth gynt. A ydych chi felly yn adolygu'r amserlen yna achos, yn amlwg, mae yna dipyn o heriau, mae'n siŵr, i gyrraedd y targed yna?

Ac yn gysylltiedig â hynny, mewn ffordd, o ran y gweithlu, mae yna dystiolaeth yn dangos bod nifer yr athrawon sy'n gallu addysgu drwy'r Gymraeg yn parhau yn is, yn amlwg, na beth y byddwn ni ei angen. O ran yr amserlen weithredu glir, pryd ydych chi'n edrych i edrych ar gynllun ar gyfer y gweithlu addysg fydd yn caniatáu i'r Llywodraeth gyrraedd y targedau yna o ran addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg?

Diolch yn fawr. Mae yna nifer o elfennau gwahanol yn y gwaith yma, felly bydd yr ymgynghoriad yn cynnwys strategaeth Gymraeg newydd i ddatblygu'r gwaith tuag at 2050. Bydd hefyd yn cynnwys fframwaith Cymraeg mewn addysg, a hefyd y cod fydd yn disgrifio galluoedd pobl yn siarad Cymraeg, fydd yn golygu ein bod ni'n gallu bod yn llawer iawn mwy medrus yn cofnodi hynna. Felly, mae hwn i gyd yn rhan o'r un darn o waith, a bydd yr ymgynghoriad hwnnw yn dod gerbron yn ystod y tymor hwn.

O ran y gweithlu, yn amlwg, mae ffocysu ar y gweithlu a sicrhau bod digon o athrawon sydd yn medru dysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn mynd i fod yn ganolog i'n llwyddiant ni yn cael y maen at y wal. Rhan o hwnnw fydd, wrth gwrs, lansio'r athrofa, fydd yn digwydd yn swyddogol ar 1 Awst 2027. Fe welwch chi yn yr ymgynghoriad yma ddod at ei gilydd yr holl elfennau fydd yn cynnig cynllun a llwybr tuag at ein dyheadau 2050 o filiwn a mwy. Mi fydd yna ymgynghoriad ar hwnnw, ac wedyn, yn unol â'r Ddeddf, mae yna gamau penodol wedyn i wireddu'r hyn mae'r strategaeth a'r fframwaith yn mynd i gynnig.

Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ateb yna, a jest un cwestiwn arall ynglŷn â'r Gymraeg ac addysg gychwynnol athrawon. Fe wnes i ofyn cwestiwn i chi am hyn yn y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon yr wythnos diwethaf. Dwi eisiau gofyn i chi ymhelaethu ychydig bach ar yr ateb yna. Roeddech chi'n sôn efallai fod yna 35 o oriau yn ofynnol ym mhob un o'r cyrsiau addysg gychwynnol ar hyn o bryd. Beth ydy'r gofyniad yna a pryd cafodd hwnna ei gyflwyno?

Mae hyn yn mynd nôl dipyn i 2020. Roedd yna darged bod 30 y cant o holl fyfyrwyr addysg gychwynnol athrawon yn cael eu recriwtio fel myfyrwyr cyfrwng Cymraeg. Fe wnaeth Kirsty Williams, y Gweinidog ar y pryd dwi’n meddwl, gyflwyno hynny yn 2020. Ydych chi'n gallu cadarnhau y bydd y targed yna yn dal i adlewyrchu disgwyliad y Llywodraeth o ddarparwyr addysg gychwynnol?

Diolch yn fawr. Rwy'n credu mai yn y cylch achredu diwethaf y cyflwynwyd y 35 awr, ond gwnaf i wirio hwnna. Rwy'n braidd yn siŵr taw e. Mae'r nodau o ran cyrraedd y targedau recriwtio pobl i hyfforddiant athrawon sy'n gallu addysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn hynod o heriol, a dŷn ni ddim ar hyn o bryd yn eu cyrraedd nhw. Felly, mae'r gwaith ar annog y llwybr honno yn mynd i fod yn rhan bwysig iawn o sut rŷn ni yn cyrraedd y nod o ran y gweithlu sydd ei angen. Rŷn ni wedi gwneud rhai pethau cychwynnol, sef rhoi cynnig arian ychwanegol i'r sawl sydd yn mynd i hyfforddiant athrawon sy'n gallu addysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond mi fydd yna, dwi'n credu, fwy o waith i'w wneud i ddatblygu'r gweithlu sydd ei angen arnom ni dros y cyfnod nesaf.

Iawn. Diolch. Mae yna un cwestiwn arall gen i, Weinidog, os yn bosib. Dan oruchwyliaeth y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Drafnidiaeth, rŷn ni'n gwybod bod adolygiad o'r Mesur Teithio gan Ddysgwyr (Cymru) 2008 hefyd yn mynd yn ei flaen. Allwch chi roi sicrwydd i ni fel pwyllgor o ran eich bod chi'n cydweithio'n agos â'r Dirprwy Weinidog fanna, ac yn enwedig o ran edrych ar effaith y Mesur yna ar y rheini sy'n medru cael eu haddysg drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, neu'n medru cael mynediad at addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, plis?

Gallaf, gallaf roi'r sicrwydd hwnnw. Rŷn ni eisoes wedi trafod hyn ac wedi blaenoriaethu dysgwyr sydd yn teithio i ddarpariaeth cyfrwng Cymraeg, a hefyd yn edrych ar ddysgwyr sydd ag anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, i sicrhau ein bod ni'n symud ymlaen yn wybodus ac yn targedu'n briodol y gwaith sydd yn digwydd ar drafnidiaeth i ddysgwyr.

Diolch yn fawr. Oes yna unrhyw gwestiynau pellach ar y Gymraeg mewn addysg? O, diolch—Donna.

Hi. I know I said I was going to be an observer today, as it's my first committee meeting but—

It's mine too.

Both of us then, Minister. What I'd like to ask a question on is regarding secondary Welsh-medium education. There are some unitary authorities that do not have that facility in their counties, and I'm wondering how you might go about addressing it, because one of my constituencies doesn't have it. Children are having to travel over an hour to access that facility, which is quite unfair for them—an hour to, and then an hour back to get home. So, I'm just wondering how you might address that.

The arrangements in terms of planning school places is the responsibility of local authorities, so that's the space for that discussion. But, when we are publishing our consultation on the framework and the way we arrive at access to Welsh-medium education, I think those conversations will be very much live with local authorities about the provision they have. But that's also a pertinent point in relation to the earlier question about learner travel.

Okay, thank you.

Diolch—[Interruption.] Sorry, Sam.

[Inaudible.]—a point made earlier about the strategy in Gwynedd Council around Welsh-medium education. My understanding is that, in primary school in particular, it's not bilingual education, that all primary schools in Gwynedd are in category 2, which is Welsh-medium only education. I'm just reading Gwynedd Council's education language policy from 2026. It clearly shows that Welsh is the medium of education for all pre-school provision throughout Gwynedd and all primary schools in Gwynedd. In foundation phase at year 2, Welsh is the only medium of education, assessment and extracurricular activities. So, I'm just wondering, for parents of children who don't speak Welsh, what assurances you can give them in places like Gwynedd that their children will be able to access the education that they and their families need?

Thank you. Obviously, the policy for language, schools' provision, is a matter for the local authority, and I am always careful not to intervene or comment on these in case any matters are referred to Welsh Ministers. But, I think, in the context of Welsh-medium education, what also exists alongside that are very many services and provision to make sure that all learners can access the curriculum through the medium of Welsh. There are extensive immersion opportunities that allow learners, at whichever point they enter the school system, to be able very quickly to become confident speakers and users of Welsh, which, in broader terms, is our aim for all 16-year-olds in our schools in Wales in any event. So, the support is available, as well as the provision.

Thanks. Sorry, Chair, just to expand on that point, I guess it's just understanding that there's a clear difference between bilingual education and Welsh-medium or English-medium only education. The categorisation of category 2 and category 3 schools is quite distinct. Are you assured that that provision is suitable, in a place like Gwynedd, to support families and children who perhaps don't speak Welsh sufficiently enough?

I think that the categorisation of schools is also something that will be part of the consultation, to arrive at a better and nuanced understanding of what these categories are and what they deliver. I'll go back to my earlier point that the support and the services are there to help all learners access the education and access the curriculum. As somebody who went through bilingual education myself, I think I can safely say that people do emerge well able to speak in both if we do this well.

Further to that, as a child brought up in Gwynedd, I wonder how you have those assurances that the immersion and the support is appropriate.

We have a wider conversation about standards in schools and how well schools are doing. That is something that is available at a local authority level as well, but my focus is most certainly on what the national picture is telling me. That's what I think the responsibility of Government is, and then local authorities for the provision in their areas.

Thanks.

Diolch. Diolch, Weinidog. Diolch, Sam. Rydyn ni'n mynd i symud ymlaen nawr at y thema nesaf, sef y gweithlu addysg, rhywbeth rydych chi hefyd wedi sôn tipyn amdano fe o ran bod yn flaenoriaeth i chi, Weinidog. Dwi jest am wirio gyda Mair, fe wnest ti ofyn cwestiwn ynglŷn â'r gweithlu, Mair, wyt ti'n hapus gyda—? Does dim cwestiwn pellach gyda ti o ran y gweithlu yn benodol?

Oes, un cwestiwn, ddim yn benodol o ran addysg Gymraeg ond cwestiwn mwy cyffredinol. Mae Dysgu bellach wedi cymryd cyfrifoldeb cenedlaethol am ddysgu proffesiynol ac arweinyddiaeth. Beth fydd y mesurau llwyddiant allweddol y byddwch chi'n eu defnyddio i benderfynu a ydy Dysgu yn gwneud gwahaniaeth gwirioneddol i safonau, recriwtio a chadw'r gweithlu?

Diolch yn fawr. Mae Dysgu bellach, fel rydych chi'n dweud, yn ei le ac mae'n gweithio'n agos iawn gydag Adnodd hefyd, sy'n gyfrifol am ddarparu adnoddau i ysgolion. Mae'r rhain yn gyrff cenedlaethol nawr sydd yn ymateb mewn ffordd ofalus a gwybodus i ofynion y system ar lefel genedlaethol a lleol, ac yn gweithio'n agos iawn hefyd gydag awdurdodau lleol. Mae gyda nhw gylchoedd gorchwyl yr ydym ni'n eu cyflwyno iddyn nhw, ac ar y rheini rydw i'n medru bod yn sicr eu bod nhw'n cyflawni'r hyn a ofynnwyd ohonyn nhw. Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Georgina, os ydych chi'n moyn ychwanegu unrhyw beth at hynny.

Yes, it's worth noting that, from Dysgu's perspective, they're there to deliver national priorities, not all professional learning for all staff, which is the responsibility of local authorities. They're very much focused around literacy and numeracy, additional learning needs support and wider inclusion professional learning, as well as, obviously, the national professional qualification for headship and the middle and senior leaders' work. They're still relatively early on; it's just over a year that they've been in place, but we continue to work very closely with them. Obviously, a lot of feedback they get from local authorities and teachers is relevant to understanding how they feel their programme is progressing. They meet with the Minister on a regular basis to talk about how this is being felt and experienced in the sector. Also, they're very aware of the importance of the impact of their work. That's a conversation that we continue to have with them, to make sure it is making a difference. They're part of the wider ecosystem of support. Part of our work is about understanding what their role is compared to others and making sure that, collectively, we're having an impact.

Diolch. Lynne, please.

I wanted to ask about the strategic education workforce plan—it was published in March—and what the status of that plan is under the new Government. I specifically wanted to ask about school support staff. You'll be aware there's a commitment in the plan to legislate for a school support staff negotiating body. There was previously a Bill manager in place to take that work forward. The Senedd has passed a motion supporting that. This is about more than pay; it's about recognition, professional learning and all the issues that relate to support staff. So, I would be keen to know where the Government is on that particular issue, but also in terms of the wider milestones in the plan.

Thank you. I'll answer that, if I may, and then ask Georgina to speak more broadly on the education workforce plan. We have had conversations around this previously and, certainly, I'm not closing the door to that possibility because I do think it is vitally important to recognise the contribution of school support staff and also their professional status, as well, as key players in the effectiveness, if you like, of our education system and certainly for the support of some learners in particular. So, we are working on how we make sure that that professional pathway is available to them to give that greater recognition of the contribution that they are making while, at the same time, as I've said previously, not closing the door to the wider conversation around the negotiating body and also keeping an eye on what is developing in England, about which I have sometimes mixed messages. So, keeping a close eye on how that develops will be important for us, I think.

More widely on the support staff, as well, obviously, we're working very hard to make sure that there are sufficient professional learning opportunities for them and to support them in their career pathway. So, whilst the Minister considers the legislative route, which, obviously, takes quite a long time, just trying to make sure that we're doing what we can in the short term to support them is really important and that is, as you say, sort of within the strategic education workforce plan.

If you recall, the plan was really about bringing together all of the different commitments that had been made around workforce from a number of different committees and bodies and just trying to make sure that they were all in one place. It remains the platform for thinking about the future, and particularly thinking about what this Government's workforce priorities are in relation to the programme for government, and literacy and numeracy in particular. So, that conversation is ongoing with the Minister, just to really think about—you know, there's a lot in there—and just trying to make sure that those are being prioritised to focus on the things that support the Government's priorities.

Thank you. And is there any update on the dispute with the National Association of Head Teachers? I saw the statement yesterday, so I can see that there is some progress, but, obviously, parents out there will be worried. How is it going and how close are we to a resolution of that dispute?

As we have throughout, we have maintained very close contact and regular conversations to deal with the outstanding issues, and that remains the case now.

Diolch yn fawr. Catherine, please.

I remember in Plenary you telling me that you were sort of wedded to the Curriculum for Wales, and we've already had a discussion about that and workforce. It's clear that Dysgu also has that wedding, I think, as well, and it says here that it will contribute directly to school improvement and the realisation of the Curriculum for Wales. So, can you expand on how they're going to improve schools in relation to the Curriculum for Wales, please?

Thank you. I think this is a point about alignment again, because, as Georgina, I think, mentioned earlier on, what Dysgu is tasked with doing is making sure that the support and professional learning it offers is of a very high standard, is rooted in research, is available everywhere in Wales to the same level, the same consistency in Welsh and English, and is very much aligned with the priorities of the Government around education. So, that is its role. That is a continuing conversation, and that conversation will develop as we go through the process of the targeted curriculum review that we've also announced, because that will be a way of making sure that we continue, always, to be aligned in the support available to achieve the Government's aims, but also, because it has been a concern in the past that the same level and the same quality of professional learning support is not available everywhere in Wales, Dysgu is very much tasked with making sure that that is something that is addressed with urgency.

Yes, because I think if you don't get that right, you're going to see a continual drop in the workforce.

Yes.

Diolch, Catherine. Nawr, wrth gwrs, mae disgyblion wrth wraidd popeth dŷn ni'n sôn amdano heddiw, ac mae'r pwnc nesaf wedyn yn ffocysu ar ymgysylltu â disgyblion a thegwch mewn addysg, Weinidog. Felly, mi wnaf i ofyn i Art, os gwelwch yn dda, ar gyfer y pwnc yma, i ddod mewn gyda chwestiwn. Wyt ti'n hapus i'w wneud, Art?

Happy?

Yes. Cabinet Minister, one of the reasons I was insistent to my party that I sit on this committee is I was one of those children that fell out of the education system into NEET as a child. Some of the worrying elements I'm seeing within the papers we've been given today is that persistent non-attendance is actually dramatically on the increase. It's not too hard to draw a correlation from that to our rising NEET statistics as well. What I'm wanting to try and capture into the system is—I was very lucky, as there were trades, and there was the army for me and I managed to re-educate myself—some of those opportunities do not exist today or they are rather more limited than they were many years ago. I feel strongly that we need to build something into the system where we are capturing these children earlier, trying to get the re-engagement at earlier pinch-points within their life. We need to try and eradicate this trend, and I'm just interested to see what your thoughts or ways, going forward, are going to be.

Yes, thank you very much. Thank you for sharing that as well. It is a significant challenge for us. Learners who are persistently absent lose 10 per cent of their schooling time or more. That is a significant barrier to their being able to engage with both the curriculum in school and also access opportunities when they've left school, which is why we have explicitly put a target into the 'Foundational literacy and numeracy plan' to reduce by 2 per cent year on year the number of pupils, the percentage of pupils, who are persistently absent. But, alongside that, we recognise that saying so doesn't make it so, and that there are complex issues at play for learners who are absent for that amount of time from school, which is why we've looked to tackle this in as holistic a way as we can manage, so thinking about what influences these things. Attendance is one indicator. Behaviour and well-being play into this as well. So, looking at how we bring all of those elements together to try and reduce that level of persistent absence is an immediate focus for us to make sure that they have the support that they need.

More broadly around the opportunities that are—. That will need to be addressed first. I think, in terms of attendance, an awful lot of work has gone into increasing attendance post COVID, and incrementally it has gone up. It hasn't returned to pre-COVID levels, and I think we're all aware that making a difference with the remaining cohort is going to be much more complex than perhaps it was to address the initial increases. These are going to be often hard to reach and that's why we're putting so much emphasis on this framework and aligning it to a target, because a target will help us target the resources and support as well appropriately.

More broadly on the opportunities that they might have later, I know my colleague Cefin Campbell was before this committee last week, and he launches the very first, I think, Welsh skills summit tomorrow. Being able to align opportunities and for people to have that line of sight, these are the possible routes for me. These are opportunities that, in a Welsh economy, lead to jobs, for me. Those kinds of things will be an important part of how we talk about this, because addressing absences in itself is very important, but it has to be for those young people who are facing significant challenges for a purpose as well, that would lead them down routes, we hope, similar perhaps to the one that you took yourself. But addressing this is going to be hard. We know that we've got the low-hanging fruit and this is the really hard work now. I don't know, Nic, whether you want to add anything.

No, I think you've covered all of that. I was just trying to check, actually. I will double-check and come back to you, but I think the persistent absence rates dropped slightly last academic year. Overall attendance rates—. I'll double-check that. I might be being overly optimistic, and it might be the first term's data where we saw a slight improvement, but I will double-check that and come back to you.

Okay. If I can just follow up on that one with a very, very short one. Cefin's plan sounds to me a very good way of trying to tackle the problem, but by the time the problem's tackled, we already have a bow wave behind that we still need to sort. One of the things I would like to see there is—. Whatever we are doing currently is not working. Can we please look into that itself, try and identify where those issues sit, and if it's at a local authority level, can we, as a Government, not do something overarching to try and clear the backlog before that plan comes into play?

We are working very closely with local authorities already on some of this work, and they are, in fact, learning from some of the examples of things that they have done very effectively in supporting families, for example, in persuading learners back into school. I'm very happy to continue to do that with some intensity, because I agree with you: there is a cohort of learners we need to get to now. And although the framework will bring these elements, we hope, helpfully together to give us greater focus linked to that target, there is a great deal of work that is currently going on as well, which we hope will have a good impact, and we know, in fact, that in many cases it is.

Diolch.

Hoffwn i aros gyda'r thema presenoldeb, os caf i. Roedd hwn yn bryder i fi hefyd, i nodi'r lefelau absenoldeb cyson, ac wrth gwrs maen nhw'n uwch ymysg y rheini sy'n derbyn prydau ysgol am ddim. A hefyd yn uwch ymysg disgyblion sy'n derbyn prydau ysgol am ddim yw'r rheini sy'n cael eu gwahardd am gyfnod penodol. Felly, o ran y grwpiau hynny—y disgyblion mwyaf bregus yn ein hysgolion ni—sut ydyn ni'n benodol yn cefnogi ysgolion i leihau'r gwaharddiadau cyfnod penodol yna a hefyd y disgyblion hynny sydd yn gyson yn absennol?

Ac mae'n rhaid i fi sôn am un ysgol wnes i ymweld â hi ar ddydd Llun i ddathlu Diwrnod Athrawon y Byd, rwy'n credu oedd hi, ontefe? I fynd yn ôl at sylw Georgina ynglŷn ag ysgolion yn helpu ysgolion, maen nhw'n gwneud gwaith arbennig yn y fan honno, yn yr ysgol yna yn Hendreforgan. Byddwn i'n argymell yn fawr, Weinidog, i chi ymweld ag Ysgol Gynradd Gymunedol Hendreforgan yng Ngilfach Goch. Mi oedd y pennaeth yn fanna yn gallu sôn am welliant o 10 y cant ymysg y rheini sydd wedi bod yn colli ysgol yn gyson am fwy na 10 y cant o sesiynau.

Felly, mae yna waith da rydyn ni'n gwybod amdano yn digwydd, ond liciwn i ddeall sut y mae'r Llywodraeth ac awdurdodau lleol yn mynd i gefnogi ysgolion sydd wir yn cael problemau gyda ffigurau eithaf ystyfnig, yn enwedig ymysg y dysgwyr bregus hynny sydd yn cael prydau ysgol am ddim.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a byddwn i wrth fy modd yn mynd i Gilfach Goch i edrych ar y gwaith maen nhw'n ei wneud. Fel roeddwn i'n dweud yn fy sylwadau agoriadol, rwy'n mynd i ysgol bob wythnos, ac rwy'n gweld enghreifftiau o'r union beth y mae'r Cadeirydd yn ei ddisgrifio o ran y gwaith manwl yna. Mae i gyd yn y pen draw yn ymwneud â'r berthynas sydd rhwng yr ysgol a'r teuluoedd yma. Mae'r gwaith bwriadus, gofalus yma y mae ysgolion yn ei wneud wir yn gwneud y gwahaniaeth rŷch chi'n ei ddisgrifio yn fanna.

A dwi'n credu bod y ffaith, fel roeddech chi'n ei ddweud, fod yr absenoldebau yma yn fwy amlwg ymhlith ein dysgwyr mwyaf difreintiedig ni yn rheswm pam rŷn ni wedi alinio'r gwaith hwn yn fwriadus iawn gyda'r gwaith rŷn ni'n ei wneud ar degwch yn ehangach, yn creu system gynhwysol, yn edrych ar lesiant, a gweld y mesurau yma a’r fframwaith yma yng nghyd-destun effaith tlodi ar gyrhaeddiad addysgol. Felly, dyw e ddim yn waith sydd yn dweud, 'Dyma darged, mae’n rhaid i chi nawr ei gyrraedd e.' Mae e'n waith sydd yn cael ei gefnogi gan ddealltwriaeth bod yna gohort penodol o ddysgwyr rŷn ni’n arbennig yn moyn ffocysu arnyn nhw, am yr union resymau rŷch chi wedi cyfeirio atyn nhw, a bod hwnnw yn mynd i fod yn amlwg yn y fframwaith rŷn ni’n gweithio arno ac yn rhoi at ei gilydd.

Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Nic, os ydych chi'n moyn ychwanegu rhywbeth yn fanna.

So, you talked about specific support. Obviously, there's a plethora of guidance documents and information available, but guidance is only useful—. It needs to be lived. It needs to be breathed. It needs to be understood. And, as part of the work on the framework that the Cabinet Minister has referred to, we're going to be refreshing and simplifying a lot of that, to make our expectations much, much clearer, to try and reduce the pressure on schools, so that they can understand straightaway what they need to do in that space.

I talked a little bit about the broader support staff within schools, and the mechanisms to help families there. We're maintaining our investment in family engagement officers, which we think are really key to some of this work, and really pushing that through.

We're also, as part of the work to develop the framework, going to be looking at how we can pilot different initiatives to see what works in different contexts. Every school community is different from the school community down the road. The challenges might be quite similar, but the cohort of learners they've got is different; the circumstances their families face are different, and the situation that they're coming from. So, we need to make sure that we've got a range of different ways of working, both what works, and school leaders tell us that it would be quite helpful to understand what people have tried and what didn't work, and why it didn't work, so that they can have a think about that in their context as well, so that they've got things to draw on.

I think it's also important to highlight the work that schools do with the money that's available through the pupil development grant. That's funding that goes to each learner who is eligible for free school meals. It goes into the school budget on a per learner basis. And we've seen some really creative use of that funding within schools, to really think about how they can tackle these issues and support those learners, and help them to overcome the barriers that they face in terms of attendance and accessing their education.

Diolch.

A hefyd dwi’n credu ei bod hi'n werth nodi, ymysg y rheini sydd yn cael eu gwahardd am gyfnod penodol, mae’r lefelau lot yn uwch ymysg y rheini sydd ag ADY, ac mae hwnna’n peri pryder mawr i fi. Dwi wastad wedi dweud mewn bywyd fod pob math o ymddygiad yn ffordd o gyfathrebu rhywbeth. Ac felly, eto, mae angen i ni gael rhyw fath o fodd holistig a chynhwysol, fel rŷch chi’n sôn, Weinidog, er mwyn mynd i’r afael a gwneud yn siŵr bod yr anghenion yna o ran ADY yn cael eu diwallu, a bod yr ysgolion yn medru cynnig darpariaeth sydd wir yn delio â'u hanghenion nhw ac yn darparu'r addysg orau bosibl iddyn nhw.

Rŷn ni wedi edrych ar y data, ac mae—.

We've got the data around persistent absence, and it is down from its spike in 2022-23, but not really improved over the past year. And, certainly, we're nowhere near the pre-pandemic levels, and we know that's the case with attendance as well, isn't it? So, something just to note for the record. Lynne, please.

I wanted to ask about the PDG. In your foundational plan, you say that a review of the PDG will begin this autumn. But the review of the PDG was announced under the previous Government, in December 2025, and I'm aware that officials have been working on it. There's £150 million a year invested in PDG, yet the attainment gap is still really shocking. The personalised assessment results were very worrying from an attainment gap point of view.

So, I wanted to have an update on that work, and when we can expect that work to be concluded, so that we can hopefully see some decisions about how that money is targeted to tackle the attainment gap.

Yes, this has been persistent for a very long time, and a lot of interventions have been introduced to try to get to grips with it. But, as you say, it persists.

I'm not familiar with the detail of what happened before I arrived, but Nic will be. But there are two elements to this, I think, that—. We are focusing on immediate improvements to the current grant arrangements and will make some announcements on that in the spring/summer of next year. And then, more broadly, to consider, longer term, how to align this well with the intention of getting to grips with that attainment gap. But the historical knowledge is in you and Nic, I think.

So, yes, obviously, the PDG is a piece of work that we've been looking at for a little while. We've been looking very carefully at the overall funding that's available and at the way that that money is allocated. I mentioned it was allocated on a per pupil basis, which it is, and it's dependent on the numbers of learners eligible for free school meals within a school. That number dwindles, year on year, for a variety of different reasons, which means that the cohort that are receiving the funding—the level of need is more compressed and more severe. We need to think very carefully about whether or not there are other data sets we should be using to make the most use of this funding, and we've been having exploration conversations about the use of different data, different sources. So, could we look at some of the information in the Wales index of multiple deprivation? Are there ways of accessing other data held by the UK Government that we could potentially use in this space? I know that you'd be familiar with some of those discussions. That's very much what we've been doing to date.

Following the discussions with the Cabinet Minister and the work around the literacy and numeracy plan, we've also been looking very carefully at whether or not the current arrangements remain consistent and, in effect, fit for purpose in the current context with the level of need and the way that society is progressing. So, there's now an additional phase to the PDG review where, as well as looking at tightening up existing arrangements and making things better in the short term, we're going to have a think and a discussion with partners about whether or not, in the longer term, we need to make different arrangements with the PDG and make broader changes. That will, obviously, take longer. It's in its very early stages. We don't know where that's going to go. We need to speak to schools and have some conversations about how it operates for them. It is a significant sum of money that sits in the education system and we want to make sure it is working because, as you say, it's not having the impact on the attainment gap that we might like.

Diolch.

Dwi'n mynd i ddod â Sam mewn nawr. Mae gen ti gwestiwn, Sam, dwi'n deall, am addysg oddi ar safle'r ysgol.

Diolch. Just before I jump into that, Chair, just on the PDG in particular, Minister, you'll be aware that one of the areas I raised in the last Senedd term was around outdoor education and outdoor education activities. I think there's probably an opportunity to explore how PDGs are used to support those opportunities. There's very clear evidence to show that outdoor activities make a huge impact on children from some of the most deprived areas. I know it is used in some local authorities for that, but not perhaps consistently across the way.

But, as the Chair mentioned, you'll be aware, Minister, that one in 20 children in Wales are educated outside of the maintained system, whether it be through independent schools, through elective home education, or through other ways. That's increased quite significantly from around one in 30-ish children around five or six years ago. I just wonder if you have a view on that, first of all, whether that's just an observation to be noted, or do you have concerns around that, or do you see that as a good thing, or none of the above?

It is a noticeable trend, as you say. I think we probably don't know quite enough about some of these decisions and how linked they are, for example, to additional learning needs or a feeling that needs are not being met in schools, or more complex areas of concern that have led to that decision being made. So, I think understanding it a little better would help me have a view, and I think the view would be different in different cases. But it is a significant increase and, from my conversations with local authorities and with schools, there is a feeling that it is more complex than perhaps we usefully know at this point, and we need to do a little more work on understanding it better.

Sure, thank you. I just wondered, I think it's your first time in front of the committee, as you mentioned earlier, so I just wondered, philosophically, if we could understand where you come from a little bit, whether you believe education is a Government's responsibility or primarily a parent's responsibility, and how your philosophical position on that may shape policy over this Senedd term.

I think that my very firm view is that this is a joint responsibility, and that's why I think we've done a lot of work on trying to work out what is the role of different parties in a successful education system. Parents and carers clearly have responsibilities, they have views, they have relationships with their own children that influence the kind of education they want to see for them. As a Government, being sure that all our learners have access to the best opportunities possible and that we know a little better where a concern needs to be taken up, I think that is our responsibility, as Government. But I see this very much as a responsibility jointly held by many parties across society and we could do a far better job in explaining those roles and responsibilities and holding each other to account for them.

Thank you. And do you, then, have any concerns about the number of independent schools closing in Wales, especially those that provide specialist provision and where local authorities have very important relationships? I recollect my time as a lead in Conwy council and the relationship we had with St David's College, for example, in the local authority area, who did fantastic work around supporting children with special dyslexia needs, for example. Do you have any concerns that independent schools are struggling at the moment and that many are closing down?

I have concerns about the learners and the families and the workforce impacted by those closures, some of which seem to have happened with very little notice. So, a rupture like that in any child's education is something that all of us, I think, should be worried about. My main focus is, however, on the 1,400-odd maintained schools we have in Wales and making sure that, as a Government, we support and challenge them appropriately.

I guess there is a link, though, Minister, isn't there, because when those schools do close down, the children are then probably educated in local state schools, and there's a cost to that. Are you getting much feedback from those schools and local authorities on the impact of that at all?

Not as yet, no, unless officials know anything more.

I wouldn't say it's detailed feedback. Obviously, wherever that happens, the local authorities are rightly concerned about the continuation of the education of those learners, and especially—you mentioned independent special schools, so schools that are providing quite specialist support—understanding the needs of those learners and what that means in terms of what the local schools will need to adjust to and make sure that they can support. The level of notice given is often quite short. We had a number that closed or announced closure quite close to the start of the school year, which meant that that was at a point where the local schools were not necessarily open and available and fully staffed to have the discussions. So, there is something around continuing dialogue and early notice in this space where these concerns are happening.

It's a really challenging circumstance. Nobody really wants to see a school close, and particularly not under the circumstances that we've seen, and the learners disrupted in the way that they are. But we haven't had large-scale reports of concerns from local authorities. They've been able to step in and support where needed. Not all families, obviously, want their children to go to those schools and they make alternative arrangements, and that's part of what we need to understand around the numbers around elective home education as well.

Minister, the letter that you wrote to the committee at the end of last week, which I believe is in the committee's papers, was around inclusive education provision, around recognising the role of mainstream, as well as specialist provision and alternative provision, but also the point that you originally made around education otherwise than at school and EHE learners and others, and the need to make sure that their needs are supported within that inclusive system. So, it moves into a sort of space, doesn't it, where the role of policy and Government is about trying to make sure that the system is working to support the needs of all learners.

Yes, sure. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Mair, plîs.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae cwestiwn gennyf fi am ginio ysgol am ddim. Mae cryn fuddsoddiad yn cael ei wneud mewn prydau ysgol am ddim i blant cynradd, ond hefyd, rŵan, i flwyddyn 7 ac 8 i'r rhai hynny sydd o deuluoedd incwm isel yn yr ysgol uwchradd. Mae diddordeb gen i o ran y dystiolaeth yna sydd gennych chi fod buddsoddiad yn gwella canlyniadau i blant. Pryd fydd y pwyllgor, efallai, yn gallu gweld gwerthusiad o effeithiau'r cynllun rŵan, wrth iddo fo gael ei rolio allan i'r ysgolion uwchradd? Yn amlwg, mae'r ymrwymiad hyd yma yn sôn am flwyddyn 7 ac 8, a sut ydych chi'n gweld hwnna'n datblygu i flynyddoedd eraill wedyn?

Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn. Cymharol newydd, wrth gwrs, yw'r datblygiad o ran polisi mewn ysgolion uwchradd. Yn sicr, bydd gweld gwerthusiad neu effaith hwnnw yn cymryd rhywfaint o amser. Dwi ddim yn gwybod, Nic, os oes gennym ni unrhyw wybodaeth ynglŷn ag ysgolion cynradd. Ond mae'n bwysig cofnodi hefyd fy mod i'n gweld y gwaith hwn yn gysylltiedig iawn â'n strategaeth fwyd ni hefyd, i sicrhau bod y ddau beth yna hefyd yn alinio dros gyfnod.

There is an evaluation around the free-school-meal provision and the benefits that that puts in place. We can share a link to that if the committee hasn't got it. Obviously, the roll-out in secondary schools has literally just started, so we need to give it a little bit of time to bed in, but we would expect evaluations to follow once we've got every local authority delivering and it's up and running fully, and then we can have a think about what difference that is making in that context.

Diolch yn fawr. Doeddwn i ddim yn disgwyl bod y gwerthusiad yna'n barod eto, ond, yn amlwg, mae'n ddefnyddiol i ni fel pwyllgor wybod bod y gwaith yna wedi'i wneud yn y cynradd, a dwi'n awyddus i weld sut y bydd hwnna'n datblygu yn yr uwchradd yn y tymor hirach.

Diolch, Mair. Catherine, please, on attendance, I believe.

I just wanted to follow on, really, from what Art was saying, and I think what Art was really trying to get at is getting to our students that are not engaging earlier on. So, I wondered if I could suggest, really, that there's a guided placement, like an early sort of apprenticeship, for those students. So, what is your overall plan to alleviate the attendance problem? Would it be more prudent to suggest alternatives that are more suitable for those children who are not engaging, not attending and not coming to school because the school can't seem to meet their need in that respect?

Thank you. I think we are willing to look at a wide range of support for these learners. We need them to be able to access the curriculum. We need their life chances to be enhanced, and we need to address the barriers that they currently face to achieving that, which is why, to go back to the framework, that is such a holistically drafted plan, so that we can consider as many aspects as possible, because all of these learners are individuals facing different levels of challenge in different areas. So, that's why the plan to support them is so carefully—. We've thought so carefully about how to do that.

I think, going back to our point, as well, about the education system being able to offer learners in Wales the opportunities that they need, is again linked to the work that I'm doing with my colleague the Deputy Minister, and it goes back to the point that I think I shared, when you raised the question as well, to understand what a pathway for these learners looks like and the opportunities that we can introduce them to. A commitment we've also made is to make this look and feel, for learners, like one single system, so that the opportunities, at an appropriate point, are signposted effectively and are available for learners who want to choose, legitimately, very different pathways, potentially. But we do need to address some of the elements around attendance and support as well.

But how early would you be willing to do that? I think that's what we're trying to say is, how early would you—? Would you go as far back—? Year 9 is quite crucial for students, isn't it, as they go into their GCSE areas. Some of those students would not engage, maybe, in those courses. So, would you be, at that point, looking at alternatives for those students, to enhance their life choices, to stop them from, maybe, not wanting to attend school, or for those barriers to be quashed, really?

I think it's a critical year, because you talk about GCSE choices. Although, I would say that, if you look at the attendance data—and we've spoken to Estyn about this as well—you tend to start seeing the pattern emerging in year 8. So, as children transition into secondary school, year 7 is an interesting year for a lot of children in terms of new experiences, new engagement, and then, in year 8, you start to see that pattern, and by year 9, it's more embedded.

Obviously, the Government has got quite a lot of policies in this space around junior apprenticeships. We're looking at VCSEs as well. Those are not areas that I work on, but they are things that we're thinking about in the context of that learner pathway provision and in terms of increasing provision. That will work for some children; it won't necessarily work for all children. It will depend on the reasons for the disengagement and what it is that they're not getting out of it. So, it is about having those conversations early and empowering schools to start having those conversations as soon as they start to notice the pattern emerging. I know that different local authorities and different schools are approaching this in different ways, which is not always ideal but does mean that it's perhaps tailored more to the learner. But, really, as soon as your attendance data starts to show that you've got an issue with a child not coming in on a regular basis, those conversations should be happening to try and divert that and get them back into school.

Yes. I welcome your holistic approach, and that's something that I was going to ask you about, the holistic side of it, really, because these students need to have their needs met. One of the things, though, I am in disagreement on is when local authorities start fining parents for not bringing children into school. I think that's a really detrimental thing to do. What are your views on that?

So, I think our policy is that fines should be a point of last resort, really. We would expect more engagement to happen before you got there. There are lots of issues with fining. You're fining the parent rather than taking positive action to tackle the issues that the child is facing. If you're talking about a family where part of the reason for the failure to attend is linked to cost-of-living pressures and issues within the family, then a fine is not going to help. We're also acutely aware that it disproportionately weighs on mothers. So, there are lots of issues with the fines system, and we would like to see action taken before that. Earlier in the summer, the Cabinet Minister announced some funding for some pilots, which are going to be looking at restorative action around behaviour, but that links into attendance as well. So, we would hope to provide some more detail on that in the coming weeks, and then learn from what we get out of those pilots in terms of what we can take back into the classroom, to try and get away from fines in particular.

O ran y cynlluniau am ysgolion cymunedol a mwy, y peilotau hynny, pa ysgolion sy'n mynd i gael eu cynnwys yn y cynlluniau peilot? Sut y penderfynwyd arnyn nhw, ac i ba raddau y bydd partneriaid trydydd sector yn cymryd rhan yn y gwaith hwn hefyd?

Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn. Rŷn ni wrthi yn adnabod yr awdurdodau lleol i weithio gyda nhw, i adnabod yr ysgolion yma ar hyn o bryd. Ond o bennu pa rai y byddwn ni'n gweithio gyda nhw, rŷn ni wedi edrych yn ofalus ar yr ystadegau o ran presenoldeb yn benodol, gwaharddiadau, prydau bwyd am ddim, ac wedi adnabod yng nghyd-destun hynny awdurdodau lleol lle mae'r rheini'n ffactorau pwysig. Felly, y cam nesaf nawr yw cwblhau cylch gorchwyl ar gyfer y gwaith yma a symud ymlaen i'w hadnabod nhw. Mae yna fudiadau arbenigol y byddwn ni'n tynnu ar eu gwaith nhw—er enghraifft, mudiadau chwaraeon, y celfyddydau, grwpiau cymunedol, sydd yn gallu helpu i deilwra mewn cymunedau penodol y math o ddarpariaeth a fyddai o fudd ac yn addas i'r cohort rŷn ni'n trio'i dargedu. Yr ysgolion hynny sydd yn wynebu'r heriau mwyaf fydd yn rhan o'r peilot hwn, ac rŷn ni wrthi, neu ar fin cwblhau'r gwaith o'u hadnabod nhw.

Oes modd i ni gael diweddariad nôl i'r pwyllgor pan fydd mwy o wybodaeth gyda chi?

Oes.

Gwych. Diolch. Nawr, mae amser yn brin arnom ni nawr. Mae jest dros 15 munud gyda ni ar ôl. Dwi eisiau symud ymlaen i bwnc arall, sef diogelu a llesiant. Hoffwn i ddod â Beca mewn fan hyn, plis.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Gadeirydd. Rhai o'r pethau cofiadwy ddaeth allan o'r adroddiad 'Cyfiawnder trwy ein Dewrder', sef yr adroddiad ar droseddau Neil Foden, wrth gwrs, oedd galwad y cadeirydd, Jan Pickles:

always 'think the unthinkable'. Don't think, 'What if I am wrong?', think, 'What if I am right?'—

—wrth drafod amheuon am ymddygiad pobl sy'n gweithio efo plant ac unrhyw amheuon o gam-drin. Mae modd, wrth gwrs, i roi pob math o fesurau a hyfforddiant mewn lle i gefnogi adrodd ar amheuon o gam-drin, ond sut fydd y Llywodraeth yn hyrwyddo diwylliant lle mae staff dysgu ac eraill yn teimlo'n hyderus i rannu ac i adrodd ar amheuon am ymddygiad rhywun, o gofio y gallai'r person dan amheuaeth fod o statws dipyn uwch na nhw eu hunain?

Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn. Dwi'n credu mai hon yw'r elfen anoddaf, o bosibl, o waith yn y maes hwn—nid jest yn yr enghraifft hon, ond yn hanesyddol hefyd. Mae mesur newid diwylliant yn beth anodd iawn i'w wneud, ond dwi'n credu ein bod ni wedi deall fel Llywodraeth nad yw hwn yn fater sydd yn gyfyngedig chwaith i addysg. Dyna beth oedd y tu ôl i'r datganiad a wnaeth y Dirprwy Weinidog dros iechyd meddwl a gofal cymdeithasol ddoe, yn ehangu'r cyfrifoldeb a'r dealltwriaeth o bwysigrwydd y gwaith yma yn ehangach i iechyd a'r gymdeithas yn ehangach hefyd, mewn gwirionedd, a bod yr elfennau yma'n cynnwys bod yn hyderus bod arweinyddiaeth o safbwynt hyn a bod atebolrwydd yn bethau sydd wedi eu gwreiddio'n ddwfn yng ngwaith pawb, yn enwedig ar draws gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, ond yn ehangach hefyd—eu bod nhw'n gyson ac yn eglur ar draws Cymru. A'i fod e hefyd yn system sydd yn abl ac wedi ei strwythuro mewn modd sy'n caniatáu iddi ddysgu a gwella, ac nad un ymateb rŷn ni'n edrych amdano fan hyn, ond ein bod ni'n edrych ar ddatblygu ac aeddfedu diwylliant mwy gwybodus dros amser hefyd. A'r peth allweddol—roedd y Dirprwy Weinidog wedi pwysleisio hyn ddoe hefyd—yw gwrando ar blant ac oedolion, ac ymateb yn gynt.

Felly, dwi'n credu bod yna gyfrifoldeb ar y cyd i adnabod a ydy diwylliant yn newid. Dwi'n credu bod gyda ni gyd-destun cenedlaethol ar gyfer y sgwrs honno nawr yn dilyn y datganiad ddoe. O safbwynt Gwynedd yn benodol, mi fydd yr Aelod yn ymwybodol fy mod i—gyda Delyth Jewell, fel mae'n digwydd—yn cadeirio'r grŵp gweinidogol sydd yn edrych ar y cynnydd ac yn trafod yr ymatebion i'r argymhellion, i sicrhau ein hunain bod y gwaith yn symud i'r cyfeiriad cywir. Rwy'n credu bod yr ail gyfarfod o hwnnw yr wythnos nesaf. A oes rhywun yn moyn ychwanegu rhywbeth?

Gwych. Diolch yn fawr iawn am yr ymateb. Roeddwn i'n croesawu'n fawr y datganiad a wnaethpwyd yn y Senedd ddoe gan eich cydweithiwr chi.

Jest ar un mater arall cysylltiedig, dwi'n gefnogwr brwd o addysg cydberthynas a rhywioldeb am bob math o resymau, ond yn bennaf oherwydd ei fod o'n arf i gadw plant a phobl ifanc yn ddiogel. Mae yna ddau beth yn bwysig yn fan hyn: bod athrawon yn teimlo'n hyderus i addysgu'r addysg yma, a bod cynnwys yr addysg yn ymateb i'r myrdd o heriau a pheryglon mae pobl ifanc yn eu hwynebu—grŵmio, er enghraifft. Sut mae sicrhau hyder athrawon i addysgu'r addysg yma, a faint o anogaeth fydd yna i gynnwys darparwyr allanol arbenigol? Dwi'n meddwl, er enghraifft, am y cynllun gwych sydd gan RASASC gogledd Cymru, Don't Steal My Future.

Diolch yn fawr. A dwi hefyd yn moyn cydnabod pwysigrwydd yr elfen yma o'n system addysg ni. Mae e'n ofynnol bod ysgolion yn addysgu am hyn. Mae e wedi bod yn ddiddorol yn yr wythnosau diwethaf yma—mae pwysigrwydd adnabod achosion lle nad yw'r berthynas yn un iach wedi codi mewn sawl dadl ar amrywiol faterion yn y Senedd dros yr wythnosau diwethaf, ac mae hwn yn rhan greiddiol, rwy'n credu, o sut rŷn ni fel system addysg ac fel cymdeithas yn sicrhau bod ein pobl ifanc ni yn cael eu grymuso i ddeall y peryglon, i allu dehongli a'u cyfleu nhw pan maen nhw angen cymorth.

Mae e hefyd yn bwysig ategu ar bob cyfrif, oherwydd dyw'r drafodaeth ynglŷn â hyn ddim wastad mor gywir ac y gallasai fe fod, a bod pobl yn deall beth yw gofynion y cwricwlwm yn hyn o beth. Mae'r plant ieuengaf yn deall, er enghraifft, beth yw e i fod yn ffrind da, sut mae bod yn garedig, sut mae meithrin perthynas gyda'u ffrindiau. Y math yna o beth yw'r man cychwyn i bobl ddeall sut maen nhw i drin pobl eraill, sut y gallan nhw ddisgwyl cael eu trin eu hunain, a'n bod ni'n adeiladu ar y wybodaeth yma i wneud ein pobl ifanc ni'n lladmeryddion effeithiol o blaid eu hunain ac o blaid eraill pan maen nhw'n teimlo bod yna rhyw beryglon, neu dyw rhywbeth ddim cweit yn iawn.

Felly, mae hwn, rwy'n credu, yn rhan bwysig o sut rŷn ni'n paratoi ein pobl ifanc ar gyfer cymdeithas y dyfodol dŷn ni ddim mor arbennig o effeithiol â hynny yn ei deall na'i negodi ein hunain. Mae gwybodaeth pobl ifanc, yn enwedig ar beth sy'n digwydd arlein, er enghraifft, yn llawer iawn ehangach, y byddwn i'n dadlau, na'r rhan fwyaf ohonom ni, felly mae rhoi'r arfau, y wybodaeth a'r hyder iddyn nhw fedru deall a negodi y byd newydd hwnnw yn gyfrifoldeb, dwi'n credu.

Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. Cyn i fi ddod â Lynne i mewn, dwi jest eisiau nodi ein bod ni fel pwyllgor wedi nodi diogelu fel pwnc sydd o ddiddordeb mawr i ni, i sicrhau bod gyda ni'r hyder bod y Llywodraeth a'n hawdurdodau lleol ni yn gwireddu'r amcanion a'r argymhellion a wnaed yn nifer fawr o adroddiadau diweddar, yn enwedig yr un o Wynedd y soniodd Beca amdano. Yr wythnos nesaf a'r wythnos ar ôl hynny, bydd y pwyllgor cyfan yn gwneud hyfforddiant diogelu, fel bod modd inni sicrhau bod gyda ni'r sgiliau a'r wybodaeth er mwyn mynd ati i ddelio gyda'r pwnc yma mewn modd sensitif, ond hefyd gyda'r wybodaeth fydd ei hangen arnom ni. Felly, roeddwn i jest eisiau rhoi gwybod i chi am hynny. Fe wnaf i ddod â Lynne i mewn nawr, plis.

We have statutory guidance on a whole-school approach to mental health in Wales in schools, and it's always been my view that unless this work is led and owned by schools, rather than being done to schools by health, it will never be genuinely embedded, although there has been good progress. As we led up to the election, there was a decision taken to look at new governance for the whole-school approach, based on that sitting fully within education, but working in partnership with health. Can I ask what progress has been made on that new governance model?

We are continuing to review what that will look like and in the context of the commitments around the national framework on attendance, behaviour and well-being, and bringing that multi-agency approach together, trying to deal with this more holistically, and really think through what that means in terms of what needs to happen in schools and what support they need from others. So, that work is ongoing.

Okay. I've asked you a few times about the school counselling toolkit. This was almost ready prior to the election. I'd remind you that access to school counselling is a safeguarding issue. It was a recommendation of the 'Clywch' report. When can we expect that consultation on the new guidance, which is designed to ensure equitable access to high-quality school counselling across Wales? When will that be ready for consultation?

We are working on that now, and I expect the updated toolkit to be ready for that full public consultation early next year.

That's quite a long time, given that that would be nearly a year, really, from when it was ready. I think that's something the committee may want to pick up.

It's needed some further work following additional feedback we received from some of the counselling services.

Can I just ask one final question? There was funding announced for trauma-informed schools training across Wales, which is very close to my heart, but also especially close to my heart was the work that was going to be undertaken by the Anna Freud Centre on strategies for safety and well-being. Can I just ask whether, as a Government, you are committed to that programme, which is designed to encourage help-seeking amongst the young people who are receiving that in schools?

Yes, that work with Anna Freud is continuing.

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Lynne. Catherine, os gallwch chi fod mor gryno â phosib, achos mae yna un thema arall ar ôl gyda ni a dwi'n awyddus i ddod ag Art i mewn i drafod y pwnc olaf yna. Felly, Catherine, draw atoch chi, plis.

There are some concerns surrounding RSE and the infusion of ideology into it. Yes, we need to safeguard children, but we need to be careful how we do that in the RSE curriculum. So, how are outside providers going to be regulated?

Thank you for the question. I think it's clear in the guidance we have around this. The learning linked to RSE needs to be factual and pluralistic. That means schools must present a range of views held in society and not push a particular view. So, it is clear in the context of what we're asking schools to do that it is in that environment that they must operate.

Okay. Going on now to home education—because I noticed that was part of this—what views do you have on home education? Because there's a fabulous home education community out there. If you have a holistic view, are you viewing education as a whole including home education? Are you going to be heading towards registers for home education? Who is going to decide that parents are not providing a suitable education for their child?

I think I answered some of those questions in my response to Sam earlier on. I am conscious of the fact that more parents are choosing elective home education. I am aware that we are looking at this in the context of some of the developments in England—that I can't remember the detail of. Nic, can you help me with that?

We're moving forward with implementing the provisions in the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Act 2026, which is the point on the registers that you mentioned for children not in school. There's a programme of work we're developing around that. The implementation requires consultation on the policy and the regulations. We'd be expecting to take that forward over the next year with different contexts. We'll obviously be speaking to the home education groups as part of that, and to families in that context, as we have done previously in this space.

With regard to who decides whether or not the education is suitable and efficient, that responsibility currently sits with local authorities, who have that engagement and can issue school attendance orders if they feel it's not appropriate. We'll be looking at some of the work in this space as part of those consultations as well.

I'm keen that home-educating parents receive fair ground across the board. If we're looking at education holistically, we should really be looking at the aspects outside education as well.

Yes, thank you.

Chair, could I come in—?

Yes, okay, Sam.

[Inaudible.]—on the point Catherine raised on RSE and your response, Minister, I think you said there are a range of views in society that need to be considered, but I assume you'd agree that not all views in society hold equal weight and have equal value.

No, I probably wouldn't. I mean, I don't know what ideas you have in your head at the moment, but I guess I wouldn't agree with everything that everybody says everywhere, nor would any of us. In the context of RSE, what we are clearly indicating is that you do need to be responsive to the society you live in, but you need to be clear that you are presenting it in those terms and that you don't push a particular view over another. The point and purpose of this is to respond to learners and for learners to have an opportunity to engage with RSE in a way that reflects the world that they are living in, that we sometimes improperly understand. It's to help them navigate that as helpfully as possible, and in a way that is entirely age appropriate as well.

Thank you.

Diolch, Sam. Diolch, Weinidog. Rŷn ni ar y pwnc olaf, fe fyddwch chi'n falch o glywed. Dwi'n gwybod fod amser yn brin, felly rŷn ni'n mynd i fod yn glou nawr fan hyn cyn y diwedd. Ein pwnc olaf ni yw cyllid a seilwaith ysgolion. Art, fe wnaf i ddod â chi i mewn mewn munud. Lynne, a allaf i jest tsieco eich bod chi'n dal eisiau dod i mewn ar y pwnc yma hefyd?

Do you still want to come in on school funding and infrastructure?

Na. Ocê, Art, draw atoch chi. Diolch.

Cabinet Minister, I'll try and be as quick as I can. We know already that schools are under pressure and so is school maintenance. I quite welcome the increase in funding that's going towards it. I do not lay any of the blame at your doorstep, it's successive Governments that have kicked the can down the road. We need to get to a point in the future whereby all backlog maintenance can be completed and then start to look holistically at a more informed maintenance plan for our schools rather than being reactive. I'd be very interested in what your thoughts are on that.

Thank you. Yes, this is a considerable challenge, and not just in education either—we see similar examples across the health service as well. We did undertake a manifesto commitment to undertake a survey of the school estate. That work is going forward to identify those buildings that are in the—. I think there are C and D conditions, I can't remember what the actual descriptors are, across Wales. I don't have the timetable for that work with me today, but I can share that with you separately. I agree with you that, more broadly across all public services, understanding and planning for what we do to address the significant issues are going to be priorities, albeit in a very, very constrained fiscal context at the moment, and particularly again for next year.

Thanks, Chair.

Diolch, Art. Lynne, yn glou, plis. Diolch.

School funding was a concern for me when I was a Minister and it's still a concern for me now. I always want to see more funding going into education. I know that you've reached an agreement with the Association of School and College Leaders, which includes a commitment to a review of school funding. I'm not expecting you to go into that now, it's too late, but I think it would be helpful for the committee to have a note on what that will look like, because I think that is a significant issue that we would want to ask about. And also to say, I don't know if the reserves and deficits have been published yet for this year, but when they are, I think it would be helpful to receive a copy for the committee.

Yes, we can certainly provide you with that, and wider information, also, about school funding. I think we agree on one point, which is to argue strongly for funding for education.

Minister, can I just come in there? I think the agreement and the conversation was about exploring a review, so exploring the sort of framework for that.

Un cwestiwn olaf gen i, Weinidog. Roedd adolygiad o lywodraethiant ysgolion a chyrff llywodraethu wedi cael ei gyhoeddi gan y Llywodraeth flaenorol yn Hydref 2025. Yn ôl gwefan y Llywodraeth, mae'n sôn mai lan at chwech i naw mis y byddai adroddiad yn cymryd i ddod mas yn gyhoeddus. Felly, oes adroddiad wedi cael ei dderbyn gennych chi eto, ac oes modd ichi roi diweddariad ar hynny, plis?

That work is ongoing. It's a piece of work that is led by Welsh Government officials and working with a range of external stakeholders from different areas of interest. So, those conversations with those partners are still ongoing, and recommendations and thoughts will be with the Minister in due course.

Okay. Could I also request an update on that, if possible, please, when that report has been issued?

Yes.

That would be really great. Diolch.

Ocê. Felly, rŷn ni jest dwy funud drosodd—ymddiheuriadau. Oes yna unrhyw gwestiwn nawr?

Really burning questions only—

—ar yr adeg yma nawr. Rwy'n edrych rownd a dwi'n credu bod pawb wedi gofyn sawl cwestiwn pwysig a phwrpasol iawn i chi, Weinidog. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi a'ch swyddogion am eich amser heddiw. Mae yna sawl elfen fan hyn rŷn ni wedi cytuno i ddilyn lan arnyn nhw.

So, the local authority advocacy work that Lynne referenced, we've asked for some follow-up on that. We've asked for some follow-up on RVE, following a question from Sam earlier on. Updates on the WESP review, please; evaluation of free school meals and sending the link to the committee on that; information on Community Schools Plus, when that pilot programme has been finalised; a review of school funding and the proposals there, and the reserves and deficits report. And then, finally, the last question around the school governance report. Lynne.

Yes, I was assuming that we'd have a discussion in private about other areas that we want to follow up.

Absolutely. Yes, we'll be having a debrief session later on this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr. Oh, sorry, Art, diolch.

The sharing of the school estate report, once available.

Diolch, Art. Diolch am ein hatgoffa am hynny. Diolch yn fawr ichi am ddod atom ni heddiw, a diolch i'r Aelodau am eich cyfranogiad heddiw yn ystod y sesiwn hefyd. Diolch yn fawr i chi.

Dim problem.